RE: Is the padlock a page security score?

I agree.

  _____  

From: public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org]
On Behalf Of Timothy Hahn
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:32 AM
To: public-wsc-wg@w3.org
Subject: RE: Is the padlock a page security score?



Bill and others, 

I agree with your comments just below here.  That the indicator (what I
had called the "score") would just be a "starting place" to go see
additional information is exactly how I was envisioning such a display.
It would be a launch point to learn/see more (if you - the user - wanted
to do so). 

On the one hand, I've been very happy to see the wealth of discussion
this chain/question has developed on the mailing list!  On the other,
I've been frustrated that we seem to be very willing to do away with the
notion because we can't be sure that we could make it "rock solid". 

I've been envisioning such a "score" as more of a "confidence level" -
as in "given the information seen, this score calculator has a 80%
confidence level in the connection and site you've just landed on". 

Further, by allowing a user to pick which "confidence calculator" was
used, they could choose one from someone or something ... or even
written by themselves.  Ok - this would really be getting into a savvy
user, I admit.  But hopefully this gets explains why I think the notion
of a "score" could still work and be useful.  Having such separation
might also help some organizations deal with whether or not they might
be held liable for the scores provided. 

One other useful discussion over the past day on this topic is the
aspect of "change in the score from the last time you were here".  I
think this is also quite powerful and shouldn't be overlooked.  A change
in score is perhaps more important to point out than the score itself.
(The "drill down" could then itemize the details on what is different). 

I still feel that giving such things in a "simple cue" (with more "drill
down" available) is better than not giving any cues at all. 

Regards, 
Tim Hahn
IBM Distinguished Engineer

Internet: hahnt@us.ibm.com
Internal: Timothy Hahn/Durham/IBM@IBMUS
phone: 919.224.1565     tie-line: 8/687.1565
fax: 919.224.2530




From: 	"William Eburn" <weburn@hisoftware.com> 

To: 	"Ian Fette" <ifette@google.com> 

Cc: 	"Doyle, Bill" <wdoyle@mitre.org>, "Mary Ellen Zurko"
<Mary_Ellen_Zurko@notesdev.ibm.com>, "Mike Beltzner <beltzner"
<beltzner@mozilla.com>, <public-wsc-wg@w3.org> 

Date: 	01/11/2008 11:55 AM 

Subject: 	RE: Is the padlock a page security score?

  _____  




Hello all, 
  
Just a couple quick notes on Ian's mail.  As a software engineer.  I am
constantly beat against the head to not make general assumptions.
Anything that I propose has to be pretty much black and white.  To say
that no one would read the manual is a very black and white statement
and yesterday we talked about the difference between engineers and every
day users.  Both of these may look at the manual in a different manner.
But unless I wanted to be turned into a junior engineer or fired, I
would never claim that no one would read our manuals, or our help.  We
pride ourselves on our documentation (based on the number of bugs found
in our documentation that are reported by our users, we're positive that
the users are reading the documentation).  I can say this in a "black
and white" manner, just by looking at our defect tracking database. 
  
Also.  To say that someone getting updates to Vista or IE would not wait
to get educated to receive that update, again is a bit of a false
argument.  I say that, not that you're argument doesn't have some
validity, but I say it because the Vista updates that the end user is
receiving, while, the user may not be looking at the lock but instead it
is the trust relationship that they have with the vendor such as
Microsoft that they use as the deciding factor (I am not stating whether
someone should trust or distrust Microsoft).   
  
In looking at existing browsers, in this case the latest version of
Opera.  I went to the HiSoftware secure site.  The padlock did not take
up much browser real estate, which everyone agrees is a concern.  I
clicked on the padlock, and what I received was unlimited information
about the padlock.  I also was given opportunities to run additional
checks, like to see if the site was fraudulent, and help on what
everything meant.  I like the help because it was online and in that
format accessible to people regardless of their physical abilities. 
  
After looking at the Opera browser, perhaps this is our solution,
perhaps we should recommend a new mark / indicator, or even keep the
padlock, but suggest that all vendors do what Opera is doing and suggest
that the vendors like Opera develop this additional window as either
open or shared source.  So that while the browser companies are
validating the sites and the connection to that site, other companies
like Compuware (my old company) or HiSoftware (my new company) could
include a whole slew of other security tests providing application or
content benchmarks to augment what the vendors are already providing.
This may be a more complete solution.  What does everyone think? 
  
Bill 
  
p.s.  If they choose not to read the help, fine, but at least we've now
accomplished something with the indicator, and the information is
available if they choose to read it. 
  
From: Ian Fette [ <mailto:ifette@google.com> mailto:ifette@google.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:22 AM
To: William Eburn
Cc: Doyle, Bill; Mary Ellen Zurko; Mike Beltzner <beltzner;
public-wsc-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: Is the padlock a page security score? 
  
Relying on people reading documentation for a browser is also fraught
with peril... people are not going to wait to get "educated" before
their copy of Vista auto-updates to IE8, nor when they download Firefox
3 are they going to actually sit down and read a manual - they're going
to double click the icon and go at it. If it's not intuitive, that's a
problem. I don't think we can say RTFM, because nobody will... 
On Jan 11, 2008 7:15 AM, William Eburn < <mailto:weburn@hisoftware.com>
weburn@hisoftware.com> wrote: 

Whether we use numbers, or "low, medium, high", at best, it's
incomplete.  Instead of calling it a "Security Score", if we called it a
"browser connection security score" and in some kind of education and
documentation, state that the score ignores both content and/or
application and any of the security principals around them, then it may
have some value.  However if someone sees a high score and they land on
a horrible site that steals all of their information, we would
definitely be doing them an injustice because at best the
high-medium-low is misleading.   



So, if we agree with Ian... and I do, browser real estate is just so
limited , there is no way we could communicate all of this information.
And understanding that benchmarking is only good if you describe what
you're benchmarking then our benchmark of security score is not useful,
and should be done away with. 



Bill 



From:  <mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org>
public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:
<mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org> public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of Doyle, Bill
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:04 AM
To: Mary Ellen Zurko; Mike Beltzner <beltzner 

Cc:  <mailto:public-wsc-wg@w3.org> public-wsc-wg@w3.org 
Subject: RE: Is the padlock a page security score? 



I was think that instead of a numeric score it would be simpler to point
to a robustness or assurance level in terms of high, medium, low. One
thing to keep in mind is that the capabilities of the protocols and
underlying IA mechanism keep changing, going to be difficult to keep
numeric score consistent. What happens to page score when a new TLS/SSL
version comes out or new ciphers are added. 



Be easier to present a consistent UI if it is noted that site meets high
assurance, medium assurance or low assurance. This would still alert the
user that something has changed - 72 to 38 would be a change in
assurance level. 






  


  _____  


From:  <mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org>
public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:
<mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org> public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of Mary Ellen Zurko
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:09 AM
To: Mike Beltzner <beltzner
Cc:  <mailto:public-wsc-wg@w3.org> public-wsc-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: Is the padlock a page security score? 



Great conversation, all the way around. I particularly appreciate those
posts that, while taking a strong stance, also try to explore other
points of view, how their stance relates to it, and what might be some
sort of reasonable middle ground. Kudos to all of you!

> Where the number *would* come in handy is when they're used to 
> seeing a "72" for their bank or online shopping site, but all of a 
> sudden they see a "38". It's the change in the security values that 
> become interesting. At that point, though, why would we require that
> the user remember that  <http://theirshoppingsite.com/>
theirshoppingsite.com is usually a 72, but 
> all of a sudden became a 36. Why would we not, instead, just alert 
> them to the fact that there's something suspicious, and they 
> shouldn't use the site at this time (with links to more detail for 
> those who wish to know what tipped us off).

That would tie into the Change of Security Level (or CoSL as I started
to call it in my review comments) in xit. 

As I think does some of the discussion of warnings on top of passive
indicators (although as my review comments indicated, it was hard to
find the part of CoSL where that was specified, and should be made
clearer). 
  


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