RE: Is the padlock a page security score?

MITM attacks are seen in bank transfer fraud. There are more efficient ways
to steal credit card numbers

 

  _____  

From: public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of Ian Fette
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:07 PM
To: Timothy Hahn
Cc: public-wsc-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: Is the padlock a page security score?

 

At least the weather forecast is based on the right factors though. All of
the things we're looking at seem to be "Is my connection to the server
secure" / "Am I connected to who I think I am". Sure, EV adds a bit more on
top of that, but basically we're still stuck at the same question that SSL
answers, which is "Who am I talking to, and am I doing so securely?" 

It's been a *long* time since I've heard anything about someone's credit
card getting stolen by a MITM attack. It's very often that I hear about
credit cards getting stolen because a site was hacked, or because of poor
security practices on behalf of the site. 

It seems like the first question (SSL-esque question) is really the only
thing we can answer, but it's also the least useful thing to answer (IMHO)
and we are doing a disservice to the user. It's the equivalent to saying "Is
it going to rain" and making your prediction based only on the barometric
pressure, without looking at any storm fronts etc. We're leaving out the
most important information, and still expecting the user to make a decision.
This seems wrong. 

On Jan 10, 2008 10:54 AM, Timothy Hahn <hahnt@us.ibm.com> wrote:


Hi all, 

This whole discussion is subjective.  What is useful for one person could
very well be useless to someone else. 

An analogy - weather forecasts about the possibility of rain today.  Does
such a score indicate whether I will get rained on?  No.  Does it help me
decide whether or not to wear a hat or carry an umbrella?  Yes.  There is no
way that people other than meteorologists (and some would argue, even them)
will accurately interpret isobars, cloud patterns, and doppler radar to
determine whether it will rain.  But people can get a feeling for the
chances of rain based on a 0-100% estimate. 

I think the same is true for the notion of a page security score.  Does it
imply that the user will definitely, without a doubt, not get "taken"?  No.
Does it give the user something with which to make a choice?  Yes.  In this
light, I still feel that page security scores are good things to consider. 



Regards, 
Tim Hahn
IBM Distinguished Engineer

Internet: hahnt@us.ibm.com
Internal: Timothy Hahn/Durham/IBM@IBMUS
phone: 919.224.1565     tie-line: 8/687.1565
fax: 919.224.2530





From: 

<michael.mccormick@wellsfargo.com> 


To: 

<ifette@google.com>, <Anil.Saldhana@redhat.com > 


Cc: 

Timothy Hahn/Durham/IBM@IBMUS, <public-wsc-wg@w3.org>,
<Mary_Ellen_Zurko@notesdev.ibm.com> 


Date: 

01/10/2008 01:34 PM 


Subject: 

RE: Is the padlock a page security score?

 

  _____  




I would ask the same question about a binary indicator.  The padlock does
not mean it's safe to enter a credit card. 

 

  _____  

From: Ian Fette [ <mailto:ifette@google.com> mailto:ifette@google.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 12:26 PM
To: Anil Saldhana
Cc: McCormick, Mike; hahnt@us.ibm.com; public-wsc-wg@w3.org;
Mary_Ellen_Zurko@notesdev.ibm.com
Subject: Re: Is the padlock a page security score?

I still don't understand what anything beyond a binary result is supposed to
tell a user. I'm on a site with "Medium" security - what does that mean?
Does that mean that I should give them my credit card or not? 

On Jan 10, 2008 10:00 AM, Anil Saldhana <Anil.Saldhana@redhat.com> wrote: 

Maybe there is an opportunity to associate "High/Medium/Low" or
"Strong/Medium/Low" based on page security score with the padlock. 

michael.mccormick@wellsfargo.com wrote:
> Sure, I agree the padlock is a binary representation of a boolean security
> score formula based on a single security variable (SSL on main page).  A
> degenerate case IMHO - but still technically a page security score. 
>
> A security score algorithm should take into account most (if not all) of
the
> variables we enumerated under "What is a Secure Page?"  Perhaps the note
> should state that explicitly.  Then padlocks wouldn't qualify. 
>
>   _____
>
> From: public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org]
On
> Behalf Of Timothy Hahn 
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:40 AM
> To: public-wsc-wg@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Is the padlock a page security score?
>
>
>
> Mez, 
>
> I'll toss in my view that the padlock is an example of a page security
> score.  In most user agents, this seems to be pretty much "binary" (on or
> off) though I think we've heard from some folks that there are some 
> "embellishments" on their display of the icon which would provide more
> gradations based on information received.
>
> On the bright side of such a visible item - it is relatively easy to 
> describe and for people to grasp the meaning of.
>
> On the down side of the padlock -  ... well, we've had lots of that
> discussion on this list already - see the archives.
>
> Regards, 
> Tim Hahn
> IBM Distinguished Engineer
>
> Internet: hahnt@us.ibm.com
> Internal: Timothy Hahn/Durham/IBM@IBMUS
> phone: 919.224.1565     tie-line: 8/687.1565 
> fax: 919.224.2530
>
>
>
>
> From:         "Mary Ellen Zurko" <Mary_Ellen_Zurko@notesdev.ibm.com >
>
> To:   public-wsc-wg@w3.org
>
> Date:         01/10/2008 11:10 AM
>
> Subject:      Is the padlock a page security score?
>
>   _____
>
>
>
>
>
> If not, why not?
>
>          Mez
>
>
>
>
>

--
Anil Saldhana
Project/Technical Lead,
JBoss Security & Identity Management 
JBoss, A division of Red Hat Inc.
http://labs.jboss.com/portal/jbosssecurity/