- From: Maryann Hondo <mhondo@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:29:32 -0600
- To: tom@coastin.com
- Cc: Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com>, David Illsley <david.illsley@uk.ibm.com>, WS-Addressing <public-ws-addressing@w3.org>, public-ws-addressing-request@w3.org
- Message-ID: <OF758D93C1.C43F6885-ON872572B3.004ED184-852572B3.004F4202@us.ibm.com>
Tom, I meant two different policy expressions. I apologize if I have introduced any confusion, I have as we say in Boston, a "wicked" head cold :-) My point was just that supporting all response types seems to cover all "alternatives". Rather than starting up more threads here, I think what will be most productive is for the ws-policy group to review what the ws-addressing group has sent and then for the ws-policy group to reply....wow a message exchange pattern :-) I've been trying to follow all the mail, but perhaps I have missed some of the exchanges. Since you're in both groups, perhaps we can discuss this on the call today. Maryann Tom Rutt <tom@coastin.com> Sent by: public-ws-addressing-request@w3.org 04/03/2007 06:56 PM Please respond to tom@coastin.com To Maryann Hondo/Austin/IBM@IBMUS cc Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com>, David Illsley <david.illsley@uk.ibm.com>, WS-Addressing <public-ws-addressing@w3.org>, public-ws-addressing-request@w3.org Subject Re: Consolodated changes for alterngive G prime I am not sure what it means to have two different endpoint policies. How is this different than one policy with three alternatives? Tom Maryann Hondo wrote: > > Tom, > > In my opinion, negation is part of the policy framework when there are > alternatives within a policy vocabulary, which is what you currently > have in your example. I think you will need 2 different endpoint > policies to support the variations you want. > > endpoint 1 > <wsp:Policy> > <wsp:All> > <wsam:Addressing> <-- supports all response types --> > </wsp:All> > </wsp:Policy> > > endpoint 2 > <wsp:Policy> > <wsp:ExactlyOne> > <wsp:All> > <wsam:Addressing> <-- requires Anonymous responses --> > Alternative 1 > <wsp:Policy> > <wsp:ExactlyOne> > <wsp:All> > <AnonymousResponses /> > </wsp:All> > </wsp:ExactlyOne> > </wsp:Policy> > </wsam:Addressing> > </wsp:All> > <wsp:All> > <wsam:Addressing> <- requires nonAnonymous responses --> > Alternative 2 > <wsp:Policy> > <wsp:ExactlyOne> > <wsp:All> > <NonAnonymousResponses /> > </wsp:All> > </wsp:ExactlyOne> > </wsp:Policy> > </wsam:Addressing> > </wsp:All> > </wsp:ExactlyOne> > </wsp:Policy> > > Maryann > > > *Tom Rutt <tom@coastin.com>* > Sent by: public-ws-addressing-request@w3.org > > 04/03/2007 05:01 PM > Please respond to > tom@coastin.com > > > > To > David Illsley <david.illsley@uk.ibm.com> > cc > Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com>, WS-Addressing > <public-ws-addressing@w3.org>, public-ws-addressing-request@w3.org > Subject > Re: Consolodated changes for alterngive G prime > > > > > > > > > > > Negation is never mentioned in either alternative G or F. > > The idea for alternative G is unqualified "addressing" assertion means > adressing supported, while the nested policy assertions are > expressing application restrictions (i.e., anon only or non anon only). > > Alternative F states that empty implies no response eprs other than NONE > may be used. This is closer to negation, but still does not use the word > :negation or negatory or whatever. > > Tom > > We are hoping to define this without discussion negation whatsoever. > > Tom > > David Illsley wrote: > > Hi Anish, > > Unfortunately, in speaking to one of our policy experts, there seems > to be > > a negation concern with at least one scenario - the one in the > example in > > fact... consider the following > > > > What is the meaning of Alternative 1 in this situation? > > > > Example 3-8. Client looking for an endpoint which supports > Addressing, and > > does not require support for responses (will intersect with anything) > > <wsp:Policy> > > <wsp:ExactlyOne> > > <wsp:All> > > <wsam:Addressing> <-- supports all response types --> > > Alternative 1 > > <wsp:Policy> > > </wsp:Policy> > > </wsam:Addressing> > > </wsp:All> > > <wsp:All> > > <wsam:Addressing> <-- requires Anonymous responses --> > > Alternative 2 > > <wsp:Policy> > > <wsp:ExactlyOne> > > <wsp:All> > > <AnonymousResponses /> > > </wsp:All> > > </wsp:ExactlyOne> > > </wsp:Policy> > > </wsam:Addressing> > > </wsp:All> > > <wsp:All> > > <wsam:Addressing> <- requires nonAnonymous responses --> > > Alternative 3 > > <wsp:Policy> > > <wsp:ExactlyOne> > > <wsp:All> > > <NonAnonymousResponses /> > > </wsp:All> > > </wsp:ExactlyOne> > > </wsp:Policy> > > </wsam:Addressing> > > </wsp:All> > > </wsp:ExactlyOne> > > </wsp:Policy> > > > > My reading (of Framework, 3.2) is that because the AnonymousResponses > > assertion is found in Alternative 2 that the negation rule means that > > Alternative 1 includes a 'must not do AnonymousResponses meaning'. And > > similarly that because of Alternative 3, Alternative 1 includes a 'must > > not do NonAnonymousResponses meaning'. If so, Alternative 1 (in this > > context) does not mean "supports all response types", but in fact > > "Addressing is supported but you must not send Anonymous or > Non-Anonymous > > response EPRs". > > > > Do you agree with this interpretation? > > David > > > > > > David Illsley > > Web Services Development > > MP211, IBM Hursley Park, SO21 2JN > > +44 (0)1962 815049 (Int. 245049) > > david.illsley@uk.ibm.com > > > > public-ws-addressing-request@w3.org wrote on 04/03/2007 12:30:50 AM: > > > > > >> On the negation of nested assertion issue that we talked about > today on > >> the call. I asked our internal policy expert (aka Ashok) about this > and > >> his explanation was that the proposal as it is written, wrt the > negation > >> > > > > > >> issue, is fine. I.e., we can say (as we have) that absence of > either of > >> the nested assertion means support for both (or that no claim is made). > >> > >> Negation applies *only* when there are two (or more) alternatives: > P and > >> > > > > > >> Q. P contains an assertion A (either top-level or nested) and Q does > >> not. If one chooses alternative Q, then that is equivalent to negation > >> > > of A. > > > >> HTH. > >> > >> -Anish > >> -- > >> > >> Tom Rutt wrote: > >> > >>> attached is html showing all changes agreed today > >>> > >>> MarcG alternative G proposal: > >>> > >>> > > > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2007Mar/0043.html > > > >>> as amended by Tom Rutt Email > >>> > >>> > > > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2007Mar/0053.html > > > >>> > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >>> 3. Indicating Use of WS-Addressing > >>> > >>> This specification supports a mechanism for indicating, in a WSDL > >>> description, that the endpoint conforms to the WS-Addressing > >>> specification. That mechanism uses WS-Policy Framework [WS Policy 1.5 > >>> > > - > > > >>> Framework <#WSPolicy>]. > >>> > >>> > >>> 3.1 WS-Policy Assertions > >>> > >>> The mechanism for indicating that a binding or endpoint conforms to > >>> > > the > > > >>> WS-Addressing specification is through the use of the Web Services > >>> Policy - Framework [WS Policy 1.5 - Framework <#WSPolicy>] and Web > >>> Services Policy - Attachment [WS Policy 1.5 - Attachment > >>> <#WSPolicyAttachment>] specifications. This specification defines > >>> > > three > > > >>> policy assertions. > >>> > >>> The wsam:Addressing policy assertion applies to the endpoint policy > >>> > > subject. > > > >>> For WSDL 1.1, these assertions may be attached to |wsdl11:port| or > >>> |wsdl11:binding|. For WSDL 2.0, they may be attached to > >>> |wsdl20:endpoint| or |wsdl20:binding|. > >>> > >>> A policy expression containing the wsam:Addressing policy assertion > >>> > > MUST > > > >>> NOT be attached to a wsdl:portType or wsdl20:interface. The > >>> wsam:Addressing policy assertion specifies a concrete behavior > whereas > >>> > > > > > >>> the wsdl:portType or wsdl20:interface is an abstract construct. > >>> > >>> > >>> 3.1.1 Addressing Assertion > >>> > >>> The wsam:Addressing policy assertion is a nested policy container > >>> assertion. The meaning of this assertion, when present in a policy > >>> alternative, is that WS-Addressing is required to communicate with > the > >>> > > > > > >>> subject. The wsam:Addressing assertion indicates that there are no > >>> restrictions on the use of WS-Addressing unless otherwise > qualified by > >>> > > > > > >>> assertions in its nested policy expression. In order to indicate > that > >>> > > > > > >>> the subject supports WS-Addressing but does not require its use, an > >>> additional policy alternative should be provided which does not > >>> > > contain > > > >>> this assertion. This may be done in WS-Policy compact form by adding > >>> > > the > > > >>> attribute wsp:Optional="true" to the wsam:Addressing assertion. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 3.1.2 AnonymousResponses Assertion > >>> > >>> The wsam:AnonymousResponses element MAY be used as a policy assertion > >>> nested within the wsam:Addressing assertion in accordance with the > >>> > > rules > > > >>> laid down by WS-Policy Framework 1.5 section 4.3.2. > >>> > >>> The appearance of this element within a policy alternativethe > >>> wsam:Addressing policy assertion indicates that the endpoint > expresses > >>> > > > > > >>> explicitrequires support for request messages with to use response > >>> endpoint EPRs that contain the anonymous URI > >>> ("http://www.w3.org/2005/08/addressing/anonymous") as the value of > >>> [address]. In other words, the endpoint guarantees support > forrequires > >>> > > > > > >>> the use of anonymous responses. > >>> > >>> The absence of the wsam:AnonymousResponses policy assertion within a > >>> policy alternative does *not* indicate that the endpoint will not > >>> > > accept > > > >>> request messages with response endpoint EPRs that contain the > >>> > > anonymous > > > >>> URI as an address; it simply indicates the lack of any affirmation of > >>> support for anonymous URIs. > >>> > >>> The None URI ("http://www.w3.org/2005/08/addressing/none") may appear > >>> > > as > > > >>> the value of [address] in place of the anonymous URI; this value MUST > >>> > > be > > > >>> accepted. > >>> > >>> > >>> 3.1.3 NonAnonymousResponses Assertion > >>> > >>> The wsam:NonAnonymousResponses element MAY be used as a policy > >>> > > assertion > > > >>> nested within the Addressing assertion in accordance with the rules > >>> > > laid > > > >>> down by WS-Policy Framework 1.5 section 4.3.2. The > >>> wsam:NonAnonymousResponses policy assertion MUST NOT be used in the > >>> > > same > > > >>> policy alternative as the wsam:AnonymousResponses policy assertion. > >>> > >>> The appearance of this element within a policy alternativethe > >>> wsam:Addressing assertion indicates that the endpoint expresses > >>> > > explicit > > > >>> support forrequires request messages with to use response endpoint > >>> > > EPRs > > > >>> that contain something other than the anonymous URI as the value of > >>> [address]. In other words, the endpoint guarantees support > forrequires > >>> > > > > > >>> the use of non-anonymous responses. This assertion is deliberately > >>> vague; its presence indicates that some non-anonymous addresses will > >>> > > be > > > >>> accepted but doesn't constrain what such an address might look > like. A > >>> > > > > > >>> receiver can still reject a request that contains an address that it > >>> doesn't understand or that requires a binding it doesn't support. > >>> > >>> As with the other assertions, the absence of the > >>> wsam:NonAnonymousResponses policy assertion within a policy > >>> > > alternative > > > >>> does *not* indicate that the endpoint will not accept request > messages > >>> > > > > > >>> with response endpoint EPRs that contain something other than the > >>> anonymous URI address; it simply indicates the lack of any > affirmation > >>> > > > > > >>> of support for them. > >>> > >>> The None URI ("http://www.w3.org/2005/08/addressing/none") may appear > >>> > > as > > > >>> the value of [address] in place of a non-anonymous address; this > value > >>> > > > > > >>> MUST be accepted. > >>> > >>> > >>> 3.1.4 Examples (Compact Form) > >>> > >>> /Example 3-1.// Subject supports WS-Addressing, no statement on > >>> supported response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing wsp:Optional="true"> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy/> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> /Example 3-2.// Subject requires WS-Addressing, no statement on > >>> supported response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy/> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> /Example 3-3. Subject supports WS-Addressing, explicitly (and > >>> optionally) supports anonymous and non-anonymous response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing wsp:Optional="true"> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsam:AnonymousResponses wsp:Optional="true"/> > >>> > >>> <wsam:NonAnonymousResponses wsp:Optional="true"/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> /Example 3-4. Subject requires WS-Addressing, requires explicit > >>> > > support > > > >>> of anonymous or non-anonymous response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsam:AnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> <wsam:NonAnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> /Example 3-53.// Subject requires WS-Addressing and explicit > >>> supportrequires the use of non-anonymous response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsam:NonAnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> > >>> 3.1.5 Examples (Normal Form) > >>> > >>> /Example 3-46. Subject supports WS-Addressing, no statement on > >>> > > supported > > > >>> response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All/> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> /Example 3-57. Subject requires WS-Addressing, no statement on > >>> > > supported > > > >>> response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> /Example 3-8. Subject supports WS-Addressing, explicitly (and > >>> optionally) supports anonymous and non-anonymous response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All/> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:AnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:NonAnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:AnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> <wsam:NonAnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> /Example 3-9. Subject requires WS-Addressing, requires explicit > >>> > > support > > > >>> of anonymous or non-anonymous response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:AnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:NonAnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> /Example 3-610. Subject requires WS-Addressing and explicit support > >>> ofrequires the use of non-anonymous response EPRs/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:NonAnonymousResponses/> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> > >>> 3.1.6 Finding Compatible Policies > >>> > >>> > >>> When a client is looking for an endpoint with compatible > >>> > > policy, > > > >>> one common method used is to take the policy intersection > >>> between the policy which the client is looking for, and the > >>> policy asserted in the WSDL document; a non-empty intersection > >>> is sought. The policy used by the client must be written > >>> carefully to avoid unexpected results. This is most obvious > >>> > > when > > > >>> the client is not looking for explicit support of a particular > >>> kind of response; failing to take care could mean missing a > >>> compatible policy. > >>> > >>> /Example 3-7. Client looking for an endpoint which supports > >>> > > Addressing, > > > >>> and which supports anonymous responses/ > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <AnonymousResponses Optional=?true? /> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> /Example 3-8. Client looking for an endpoint which supports > >>> > > Addressing, > > > >>> and does not require support for responses (will intersect with > >>> > > anything)/ > > > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> <-- supports all response types --> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> <-- requires Anonymous responses --> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <AnonymousResponses /> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <wsam:Addressing> <- requires nonAnonymous responses --> > >>> > >>> <wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> <wsp:All> > >>> > >>> <NonAnonymousResponses /> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> </wsam:Addressing> > >>> > >>> </wsp:All> > >>> > >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne> > >>> > >>> </wsp:Policy> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> For more detailed descriptions of the use of wsp:Optional, > >>> wsp:Ignorable, and strict and lax intersection, please refer > >>> > > to > > > >>> the WS-Policy Primer [WS Policy 1.5 - Primer > >>> > > <#WSPolicyPrimer>]. > > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless stated otherwise above: > > IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with > number > > 741598. > > Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire > PO6 3AU > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------- > Tom Rutt email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com > Tel: +1 732 801 5744 Fax: +1 732 774 5133 > > > > -- ---------------------------------------------------- Tom Rutt email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com Tel: +1 732 801 5744 Fax: +1 732 774 5133
Received on Wednesday, 4 April 2007 14:27:42 UTC