[TD-TF] minutes - 12 June 2020

availabl at:
  https://www.w3.org/2020/06/12-wot-td-minutes.html

also as text below.

Thanks,

Kazuyuki

---
   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                             WoT-WG - TD-TF

12 Jun 2020

   [2]Agenda

      [2] https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#Agenda

Attendees

   Present
          Kaz_Ashimura, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster,
          Taki_Kamiya, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Cristiano_Aguzzi,
          Ege_Korkan, Zoltan_Kis, Klaus_Hartke

   Regrets
          Sebastian

   Chair
          Taki

   Scribe
          kaz

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Agenda
         2. [5]Prev minutes
         3. [6]IRTF workshop
         4. [7]Doodle poll for CoAP RDF discussion
         5. [8]Issue 910
         6. [9]Issue 899
         7. [10]PR 911
         8. [11]Issue 908
         9. [12]Issue 848
        10. [13]AOB?
     * [14]Summary of Action Items
     * [15]Summary of Resolutions
     __________________________________________________________

   <scribe> scribenick: kaz

Agenda

   <Ege>
   [16]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/848

     [16] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/848

   Ege: would like to talk about the above issue if time permits

Prev minutes

   [17]June-5

     [17] https://www.w3.org/2020/06/05-wot-td-minutes.html

   Taki: anything to be fixed?

   (none)

   Taki: approved

IRTF workshop

   [18]draft minutes

     [18] https://hackmd.io/cVNBLbrwTtO69IfU84e_WQ?view

   Taki: anything to be mentioned here?

   Kaz: McCool and Lagally gave information on the basics
   ... maybe we can ask Koster and Ege about some brief report on
   ODM an Hypermedia

   Koster: presented TDT vs ODM
   ... here TD annotation and creating TD based on ODM

   [19]TD issue 903

     [19] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/903

   Koster: how to generate TD using TD template

   Taki: related to issue 903

   Kaz: gave a comment about how to handle state information
   ... might be better to handle state information separately from
   the properties
   ... need further discussions

   Koster: yeah, how to handle state
   ... developers could look into human-readable definitions
   ... how to make that machine-readable is what we need
   ... SCXML might be one possibility
   ... we have also have an example by Carsten abut a coffee
   machine
   ... we could probably work on that
   ... human-readable description vs machine-readable semantics
   ... that was good discussion at the workshop

   Taki: ok
   ... let's have further discussion

   Koster: ODM have objects and thing class
   ... how to deal with that using TD?
   ... not really sure at the moment
   ... e.g., discovery based on the capability
   ... RGB affordance, HUE saturation, etc.
   ... would look into the note again

   Taki: ok
   ... if you remember any points, please put them into issue 903
   ... what about the hypermedia topic?

   Ege: talked about that
   ... Matthias contacted me after the workshop
   ... and gave a comment to issue 899
   ... would talk about that during the next agenda item (for
   issue 899)

   Taki: ok

Doodle poll for CoAP RDF discussion

   [20]Doodle

     [20] https://doodle.com/poll/a9kcrvkxyhr74p6x

   Kaz: thought we were planning to add some more slots from
   Tuesday

   Ege: Tueday would be better for me too, and probably Klaus as
   well

   Kaz: so far, Victor is not available for either of the slots

   Taki: right

   Kaz: probably we need Victor's participation as well
   ... so let's check with Sebastian

   Taki: will send a note to him

   Kaz: tx

Issue 910

   [21]Issue 910

     [21] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/910

   Taki: issue raised by Zoltan

   Zoltan: just wondering about the best practices for TDs
   ... actions using URI variables
   ... in Example 21

   [22]Example 21

     [22] https://www.w3.org/TR/wot-thing-description/#example-21

   Zoltan: not following the narrow-waist model
   ... would be good to have why not using input
   ... wondering what would be the right way
   ... Ege provided another example of a coffee machine from
   node-wot
   ... seems a fair example
   ... but we don't really have good description
   ... how to handle multiple parameters, etc.
   ... there is a gap

   Ege: strongly agree
   ... Example 21 is not a good example
   ... so we should provide all the affordance, property, action,
   event

   Zoltan: if you could add consistency
   ... also should put more text as well

   Ege: could have some "info box"?
   ... like an Editor's note

   Zoltan: Examples are kind of Best Practices
   ... all the examples in the spec should show best practices

   Daniel: we would see best practices but need to see what we
   have
   ... and what we shows
   ... there are big differences here
   ... should not say this is a best practice here

   Zoltan: we have interaction affordance
   ... interested in what is possible and what is not

   Daniel: you could handle URI variables differently

   Kaz: we don't have to call all the examples "best practices"
   ... but we should improve all the example if possible

   Ege: we should not use "actions" but should use "properties"
   for URI variables example

   Kaz: if Ege or Zoltan could generate a better example, that's
   good
   ... also if Daniel has another example in his mind, that's also
   nice

   Daniel: agree putting URI variables into "actions" is not good
   ... also wanted to mention another exampe

   [23]another example

     [23] https://openweathermap.org/current

   Kaz: is anybody from you three interested in generating a PR
   for a better example?

   Ege: can do it based Daniel's provided resource

   Kaz: tx

   <dape> example:
   [24]https://samples.openweathermap.org/data/2.5/weather?q=Londo
   n,uk&appid=439d4b804bc8187953eb36d2a8c26a02

     [24] https://samples.openweathermap.org/data/2.5/weather?q=London,uk&appid=439d4b804bc8187953eb36d2a8c26a02

   Taki: tx
   ... so will assign it to Ege

   Ege: sure

   Zoltan: also we could mention how to handle multiple inputs
   ... but could create another issue about that

   Taki: ok

   Zoltan: that's related to the discussion on Scripting
   ... how to distinguish having one parameter from multiple ones

   Koster: one parameter or multiple parameters within one object?

   Zoltan: it's a bit misleading at the moment

   Koster: would think about a best practice?

   Zoltan: it's not well-described how to handle multiple
   parameters

   Koster: could refer to OCF parameters

   Kaz: so once Zoltan has create an issue about that, Koster can
   put a comment based on the OCF examples

   Koster: ok

   Taki: (puts a comment about the discussion so far)

   Koster: Scripting API provides programmatic APIs

   Zoltan: the algorithm should be compatible with various inputs
   ... would be good for somebody to look into the algorithm as
   well
   ... but this point should be clarified within the TD spec

   Kaz: why don't we continue the discussion after Zoltan creates
   the issue itself :) ?

   Zoltan: ok

   [25]Taki's comment to Issue 910

     [25] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/910#issuecomment-643098998

Issue 899

   [26]Issue 899

     [26] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/899

   Ege: Matthias gave several points

   [27]Ege's comments

     [27] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/899#issuecomment-641620306

   Ege: "Feedback on the proposals"

   

   Dynamic TDs (proposal 1): TDs should not be used as resources
   that change quickly or in a way that represent application
   state or data. This would mean that TDs cannot be cached and
   also would cause problems in proxying the TD/Thing.

   ]]

   

   Static TDs (proposal 2): This approach is against hypermedia
   where normally the hypermedia information should be generated
   dynamically by the Thing and the Consumer would follow it. In
   this proposal, all the relevant information to interact with
   the Thing in any state of the Thing needs to be communicated in
   advance. It could be very well the case that the possible
   interactions/operations depend on the state of the Thing.

   ]]

   

   Common to both approaches: The proposed new operation values
   will not be enough for more complex hypermedia cases.

   ]]

   Ege: may need some powerful mechanism to handle state
   transition like SCXML

   

   There is no widely accepted hypermedia standard. That means
   that we can prescribe how it should be done with TDs. We can
   somehow support the existing implementations by Oracle and
   Mozilla but we do not have to guide the greenfield on the fact
   that hypermedia should be done like this.

   ]]

   Zoltan: he had a comment to try something like CoRAL

   Ege: need to support this?

   Zoltan: do we want to generic one or some specific one for
   hypermedia control?
   ... if we are ok with specific one, I'm fine with this proposal
   ... but do we need a generic one?
   ... like CoRAL does for the Open API

   Ege: we have implementations by Oracle and Mozilla so far

   Zoltan: and concerns about actions?

   Ege: right

   Zoltan: we need use cases and then how to align with CoRAL

   Ege: CoRAL itself is not supported so far

   Zoltan: I'm not saying it should be supported but think there
   should be some kind of alignment

   Koster: TD could describe a format for static resources
   ... and then invoke actions
   ... the format will be the same
   ... some hints on how to deal with it
   ... static information about underlining resources
   ... I have to create some example, though

   Kaz: probably we should clarify some concrete use case and
   scenario including actual devices

   Koster: we should try this during the plugfest
   ... but nobody has tried it yet

   Daniel: we can show how it might work

   Kaz: we should start with some initial scenario for this
   ... even though we can't try this during the plugfest next week
   ... Ege, maybe you can put your initial idea for the plugfest
   wiki or the use case repo
   ... and we could try this at the plugfest during TPAC

   Ege: it would make more sense
   ... agree we need a concrete scenario for this discussion

   Zoltan: would be better to have concrete PR based on the
   discussion
   ... maybe we could create a new issue for that purpose
   ... we need to move forward

   Cristiano: would agree with periodic cleaning up for long-term
   issues
   ... to summarize the points
   ... if possible :)

   Zoltan: good to clarify the important points
   ... but we don't have everybody here today
   ... so maybe a good topic for the f2f

   Kaz: yeah
   ... let's put this as an agenda item for the f2f in 2 weeks
   ... and ask everybody to join it
   ... and try to create a PR so that we could look into this at
   the plugfest during TPAC

   Koster: could generate a TD for that purpose
   ... how to deal with the location is a question

   <Ege> [28]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/911

     [28] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/911

   Kaz: yeah, so this topic is strongly related to the discovery
   topic
   ... so would be good to talk about this during the f2f

   [29]Taki's comment for Issue 899

     [29] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/899#issuecomment-643116127

PR 911

   @@PR911 here

   Ege: has just created a PR (PR911) for Issue 910

Issue 908

   [30]Issue 908

     [30] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/908

   Taki: this is kind of new
   ... (default value for observable)

Issue 848

   [31]Issue 848

     [31] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/848

   Ege: under specified within the TD spec

   Zoltan: needs to be split out from the TD spec
   ... do we want to once remove it?
   ... or want to keep it within the spec?

   [32]Ege's latest comment

     [32] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/848#issuecomment-642968209

   Zoltan: how the array is handled?

   Ege: would describe how to specify contentType for array

   Kaz: would it be possible for us to clarify what is expected
   behavior for each possible protocol?

   Ege: would say yes

   Koster: contentType is one possible requirement
   ... and uriVariables may be another

   Ege: we could clarify it based on the coffee machine example

   Kaz: btw, I have a naive question
   ... do we really need "readmultipleproperties" to cover our use
   cases?

   Ege: that's my question as well

   Koster: would use readmultipleproperties to get all the initial
   information at once

   Ege: could use readallproperties for that purpose

   Zoltan: yeah, most people use allmultipleproperties
   ... so my question is also if we really need
   readmultipleproperties

   Cristiano: there're too many parameters for
   readmultipleproperties

   Kaz: it seems to me it's too complicated to implement it and
   use it
   ... so my question is if we still need it

   Zoltan: good topic for the f2f

   Koster: and we need to clarify concrete use cases

   Taki: agree this is a good topic for the f2f

   [33]Taki's comments for Issue 848

     [33] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/848#issuecomment-643129815

AOB?

   Taki: anything about Binding?

   Ege: nothing for today

   Taki: ok
   ... will contact Sebastian about the Doodle poll for CoAP RDF
   discussion
   ... aob?

   (none)

   Taki: ttyl then

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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Received on Monday, 13 July 2020 08:05:12 UTC