W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > whatwg@whatwg.org > October 2009

[whatwg] Some discrepencies and example remarks

From: Yuvalik Webdesign <postmaster@yuvalik.org>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 01:33:30 +0300
Message-ID: <000001ca4930$89839400$9c8abc00$@org>


> From: Tab Atkins Jr.
> > Also, a side-bar, what is that, since side-bars are usually
> separately layed-out and not always directly "around the content".
> 
> You're interpreting "around" too strictly here.  It means just
> "nearby" here.  It means exactly what it says - <aside> can be used
> for marking up the sort of thing that you typically see in a sidebar
> in magazines.  It is also useful for marking up the traditional
> "sidebar content" of webpages, where there's a fairly narrow column to
> the left or right of the main content containing tangential
> information like blogrolls.

So you are saying that <aside> can be generally used as the smaller columns on pages regardless of their contents, as long as it is somehow related to the page (which obviously it is always)?

> > C)
> > When talking about outline (in the context of sectioning) I gather we
> are NOT talking about the DOM-tree, but about (a Table Of) Contents
> kind of outline. Does a generic page-header and footer (containing a
> site-wide logo, style and navigation) belong in such an outline? If
> not, does this mean it has to be enclosed in a separate SECTION
> element? Nothing about this is made clear either in wording or
> examples.
> 
> The headings that may be contained in <header> belong in the outline,
> and those are indicated simply by marking them up with <h1>, <h2>,
> etc.  Don't overthink it.  ^_^

I think you misunderstand my point/question. A "page-header" (or "page-footer") can consist of more than just semantic content and navigation. It can consist of a logo, styling, non-related information (sometimes above this header we have search boxes and login panels, etc. etc). Do these become part of the <header> or is the <header> to become part of a <div> in such cases? Also, if below a header with content we have a styled image (purely for visual means) does this become part of the header or not? Where is the line drawn? See also below.

> 
> > The spec is not very clear anywhere about styling practices (I know
> this is CSS' job, but within HTML the mark-up should at least be
> mentioned).
> 
> What do you mean here?  The Rendering section describes a default
> stylesheet that is recommended for normal visual UAs to employ.
> 
> > D)
> > All in all I would like to recommend, and I hope you will seriously
> consider, rewriting all the examples. Currently the examples are not
> representative of real-world cases. I suggest you find a collection of
> existing websites of all types (blog, webshop, social-site,
> educational, company-profile, application etc. etc.) and base your
> examples on that. Trying to show good and clear use cases and
> differences.
> 
> Can you give any examples?  I've been able to use the elements pretty
> usefully on my own pages based on spec text, especially since the last
> round of changes/clarifications.
> 

What I mean is that I can understand and read the spec when seen from a "pure" content point of view. A lot of information regarding the outline and how content is to be marked up. But very little in regard to the actual marking up of lay-out (which has less to do with content, but can still act as containers for content).

Perhaps a small example, currently I am working on a site where content which is generally regarded as a header, is placed as a sidebar on the lower right of the page. It only contains a logo and a slideshow. Is this a <header> or is this a <div>? I can give you several dozens of those questions.
What I mean is, the spec doesn't give us examples other than those which are obvious, it doesn't give us insight in more complex lay-outs. And once the spec is ready and becomes used by others like me (which maybe less insightfull than you are in the spec since we weren't so closely involved in it) then those designers will be faced with questions the spec has no answers for.

Again, this is no critique on the spec itself, just on the lack of more real and complex lay-out examples related to content mark-up.

Evert
Received on Friday, 9 October 2009 15:33:30 UTC

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