- From: Erik Lagerway <erik@hookflash.com>
- Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 09:02:54 -0700
- To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
- Cc: Bernard Aboba <Bernard.Aboba@microsoft.com>, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, "Michael Champion (MS OPEN TECH)" <Michael.Champion@microsoft.com>, "public-webrtc@w3.org" <public-webrtc@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAPF_GTZJO0CNT3uXHhzMRag-yON5O7FrrGJ5qAS77c1UhWpChQ@mail.gmail.com>
Based on concerns raised and after speaking to several WG and CG participants, I am proposing the following changes: - removed liaison requirement - added some copy around getting the groups working together - changed "low-level" to Object - changed "high-level" to 1.0 SDP I believe this addresses most of the concerns and feels like a common ground we can start from, the proposal in its entirety is attached. Cheers, Erik On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Bernard Aboba < > Bernard.Aboba@microsoft.com> wrote: > >> Support for 1.0 features is pretty important, what is often called >> "feature parity". Some advancement beyond no-SDP is also needed because >> you need a carrot, not just removal of a stick. >> >> In common usage, "API backward compatibility" has a very specific and >> quite different meaning - it means that 1.0 API calls are natively >> supported, and behave identically. >> >> That would be a fine goal for a WG that wanted to refine an SDP + object >> model such as what we have in 1.0. >> >> But those words preclude an API that does not include support for SDP - >> even if all features of 1.0 were supported, and a JS shim were feasible. >> > > Thanks for making this point sharp. > > "Native" can mean two things in this context: > > 1. Written in some native language, such as C++ and not JS. > 2. Built-in so that the browser supports it without the site having to do > anything. > > What I mean is the latter. More specifically: sites which work now should > work > in a browser which implements the 1.1 API without *any* modification to > those > sites, including loading a JS polyfill [0]. If this is truly the point of > contention > and people want the WG to develop an API that doesn't have this property, > then I don't see much possibility for consensus. > > -Ekr > > [0] Modulo changes made for extremely compelling reasons, like we found > something which was actually broken and on which almost nobody relied. > > > It's also ok to say "we will figure it out later when we know more". >> Sometimes kicking the can down the road is easier - just ask Congress. >> >> ------------------------------ >> From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> >> Sent: 4/29/2015 12:57 PM >> To: Michael Champion (MS OPEN TECH) <Michael.Champion@microsoft.com> >> >> Cc: public-webrtc@w3.org >> Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Changes >> >> I understand where you are coming from, but it would be good to have an >> example of something specific that we don't want to have to support in the >> future. >> >> SDP munging is a clumsy API surface, but I am not sure it imposes any >> additional constraints on the lower layers. >> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Michael Champion (MS OPEN TECH) < >> Michael.Champion@microsoft.com> wrote: >> >>> Justin wrote: >>> >>> > As mentioned yesterday, I think we have a better idea now of what >>> 1.1 is going to be than what 1.0 was >>> > going to be when we started 1.0. IOW, I don't think you can really >>> argue that we are signing a blank check here. >>> >>> So what language might be appropriate in a 1.0 charter to put some >>> discussion of 1.1 in scope? I think everyone supports the goal of a >>> smooth transition for app developers, especially if they can re-use the >>> high level APIs unchanged in many scenarios. Or as you put it in another >>> message, if the constraint is "PeerConnection can be implemented atop >>> the 1.1 objects” I suspect everyone could live with that. But as Tim >>> Panton notes in this thread “The reality of the current API is that >>> everyone has to mess with the SDP to get what they want, and frankly >>> there is nothing lower level than regexps on SDP.” That’s not >>> a “compatibility" we want to inflict on posterity! >>> >>> >>> From: Justin Uberti >>> Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:12 AM >>> To: Michael Champion >>> Cc: "public-webrtc@w3.org" >>> Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Changes >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 10:24 PM, Michael Champion (MS OPEN TECH) < >>> Michael.Champion@microsoft.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com >>>> <fluffy@cisco.com?Subject=Re%3A%20Proposed%20Charter%20Changes&In-Reply-To=%3CAF740A35-9FB8-4F56-A0BB-A4864880BC8E%40cisco.com%3E&References=%3CAF740A35-9FB8-4F56-A0BB-A4864880BC8E%40cisco.com%3E>> >>>> wrote: >>>> > I put a diff at >>>> > >>>> https://github.com/fluffy/webrtc-charter/compare/gh-pages...fluffy:ekr >>>> >>>> That appears to compare EKR’s proposal with the original charter >>>> that triggered formal objections. Comparing Dom’s revised charter >>>> proposal which addresses the objections in >>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2015Mar/att-0046/webrtc-charter.html to >>>> EKRs in https://github.com/ekr/webrtc-charter/tree/ekr_revision I see >>>> a number of significant changes. EKR’s proposal: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Adds a 3rd year to the lifetime of the WG, saying that once 1.0 is >>>> stable, “the group will reevaluate its deliverables and milestones, and may >>>> reconsider its scope.” >>>> >>>> - Adds language to the Deliverables section constraining future >>>> versions of the WebRTC spec to be backward compatible with 1.0 >>>> >>>> - Drops the formal liaison with the ORTC Community Group >>>> >>>> - Drops language from the Decision Policy section saying that editors >>>> are responsible for reflecting the consensus in the WG and that those >>>> sections that haven’t been reviewed by the WG should visibly reflect that >>>> fact >>>> >>>> >>>> These changes are not likely to build bridges between the RTC >>>> communities, and are problematic for a number of reasons. In particular >>>> the idea that a WG “may reconsider its scope” without going through a >>>> formal chartering process is incompatible with the W3C process and patent >>>> policy. The scope statement is a key part of the WG’s “contract” with the >>>> AC and what drives members IPR commitments when they join a WG. If we have >>>> to go thru another rechartering exercise to put 1.1/NG deliverables in >>>> scope, let’s have that discussion when we have stable specs and real >>>> world experience to discuss, not pencil it in now and change it later. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I strongly object to changing the Decision Policy section in Dom’s >>>> draft, which was negotiated as a way around the 2 formal objections. If >>>> there are substantive objections to the proposed decision policy, let’s >>>> discuss. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On the ORTC liaison,the CG is a group with many of the same members as >>>> the WebRTC WG, and implementation experience with ORTC is exposing many >>>> questions about the underlying IETF specs and protocols that affect 1.0 as >>>> well. No one is asking for joint decision making or a veto power, and it >>>> seems to be in the WebRTC WG’s best interest to maintain open and >>>> respectful communications with the ORTC CG. >>>> >>> >>> This proposal from Eric was an attempt to sketch out the general idea >>> of what a 1.1 charter would look like, not to nail down all the details. >>> It's good to raise these points but I think most of them are just >>> oversights. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On constraining a future WebRTC standard to be backward compatible with >>>> 1.0, that seems reasonable in principle and Justin has sketched out an >>>> approach to keeping apps built for 1.0 working on in a future version. BUT >>>> there is a very big devil in the details: There is no stable version of 1.0 >>>> yet, so it’s essentially signing a “blank check”, promising to support >>>> whatever the WG eventually fills in, irrespective of how it works in the >>>> real world. >>>> >>> >>> As mentioned yesterday, I think we have a better idea now of what 1.1 >>> is going to be than what 1.0 was going to be when we started 1.0. IOW, I >>> don't think you can really argue that we are signing a blank check here. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The way forward Dom’s charter sketches out seems less confrontational: >>>> The WG focuses on getting 1.0 stabilized, the ORTC CG works to see if it’s >>>> ideas actually work for implementers and app developers. When 1.0 gets to >>>> CR we all look at the evidence of what works, what else is needed, and >>>> figure out a 1.1/NG charter that everyone can sign up to. I don’t >>>> particularly care whether the current WG charter is extended or Dom’s >>>> charter approved, but it’s premature to draft a 1.1 charter while 1.0 is in >>>> flux and ORTC is still learning from implementation experience. For those >>>> who disagree, let's start with Dom’s draft and see if there are tweaks >>>> to satisfy both those who want to have NG work in scope, and those who want >>>> to see the WG prove it can build consensus on a 1.0 spec before claiming >>>> ownership of the next generation. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >
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Received on Thursday, 30 April 2015 16:03:25 UTC