Re: [mediacapture-region] What should the spec say about elements like HTMLAudioElement? (#51)

> > > The current issue discusses why I think minting should fail (synchronously) for HTMLAudioElement.
> >
> > OK, let's focus on this issue specifically then and if we want to discuss other issues, let's have separate issues.
> 
> I have focused on this topic **exclusively** in this issue here. I would appreciate it if you could point out where this was ambiguous in my comments.

I'd be happy to:
- The [subject](https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-region/issues/51) is not _"What should the spec say about HTMLAudioElement?"_ but _"What should the spec say about  **elements like** HTMLAudioElement?"_ (your OP edit similarly says _"**elements such as** HTMLAudioElement."_)

This appears to directly contradict your statement above that you've _"focused on [HTMLAudioElement] **exclusively** in this issue"_, since you filed this issue and wrote the OP about a _category of elements_.

_"Elements like..."_ implies a **category X of elements** of which HTMLAudioElement is a part. But it's ambiguous what the criteria for category X are, which means it's ambiguous what criteria are being proposed to be enshrined in the spec, and what criteria are being used to justify it.

I took a stab at the criteria being: no visual component, as did @youennf and even @beaufortfrancois it looks like judging by [engagement](https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-region/issues/51#issuecomment-1139385330) to my rebuttal showing HTMLAudioElement [does have a visual component](https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-region/issues/51#issuecomment-1139031999) at times.

After conceding this, you then said visibility was **_not_** the criteria for what was _["sensible"](https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-region/issues/51#issuecomment-1139526167)_, and linked to:
* The OP, whose only definition of what's _"sensible"_ appears to be [its reference to](https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-region/issues/48#issuecomment-1136330532) _"In an out-of-band chat with Harald, he has raised the interesting point of HTMLAudioElement and similar elements. In other words, **some elements** simply **do not make sense** as crop-targets."_

In other words, you seem to be relying on @alvestrand's definition. I asked @alvestrand  today at our co-chair meeting, and he confirmed he thought cropping to an HTMLAudioElement didn't make sense because it didn't have a visual component.

This would appear to support the view of others that visibility was the original criteria, and that you misunderstood Harald. Of course it's fine for you and Harald to have different reasons, but to others it is demonstrably ambiguous what you mean, since the only person you quoted used a different definition from yours.

Your [summarized criteria](https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-region/issues/51#issuecomment-1139526167) for what is _"sensible"_ appears to be _"Web-developers don't need it"_ as determined by you. Not only is this subjective and impractical — short of running every element type by you, this amounts to a highly ambiguous definition of what is sensible and what is not — But it's also surprisingly narrow: You said _"we'd be wasting time and effort on unrequested, undesired functionality, that no prudent developer would use. So far, developers seem to be happy with cropping to DIVs"_.  Here it seems like you're saying only DIVs are sensible? This appears to contradict your earlier statement that HTMLVideoElement was sensible, and ALSO your statement here that this is only about HTMLAudioElement.

Based on these points which you've asked me to call out, I would say your position is far from clear, and that people who call this out are not in error.

I would ask we not make claims about what makes sense or not without backing such claims up with arguments and facts that can be debated. I would also ask we limit debate to those arguments regardless of who makes them. This should save a lot of time.

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Received on Tuesday, 31 May 2022 21:11:15 UTC