W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webpayments@w3.org > December 2014

Re: P2P Payments

From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 08:49:45 +0100
Message-ID: <54816399.4010901@gmail.com>
To: "Daniel.Buchner" <Daniel.Buchner@target.com>, Web Payments CG <public-webpayments@w3.org>
Thanx Daniel,
I guess my problem with the W3C payment standardization initiatives including P2P Payments is that they don't have access to the browser-client platform except through forking which have made the WebPayment CG advocate for methods which are based existing client-side technology.

Apple and Google do not have this problem.  Google invests a lot in experimenting with various features in "Chrome" and based on my experiences with advanced system development there's no better way if you want to find the "answer" in reasonable time.  Sometimes the answer is "No" and then you must move on unlike the TrustedComputingGroup who toiled with the TPM for 12 years (!) only to find out that TEEs is what the market needs.

BTW, rechartering seems to be a really big deal.  This is wrong, standardization is nothing but a specific way of running a project.

Anyway, due to a lack of browser-vendor buy-in, the W3C payment activities will either have to:
1) leave the browser and rather start playing with Android and iOS
2) follow the WebPayment CG path

I would personally consider forking (have the Firefox and Chrome build environments right in front of me now...) but doing such a thing on your own is not likely to fly very high, it still requires considerable buy-in, development resources, evangelizing, etc.

Another issue is if you come up something really cool that would compete with the existing world that shouldn't be developed in a public process because the market need/wants to be "surprised" like when Apple announces a new device.

What's left would be standardizing an existing payment systems like Apple Pay or Google Wallet.  However, even that looks quite difficult given the limited openness in the payment industry.

My guess is that 99% of the current payment startups will be gone in three years.

Anders "doom-and-gloom" Rundgren

On 2014-12-04 22:00, Daniel.Buchner wrote:
> Hey folks - long time, no talk,
> I'm not sure I totally understand what you by "My guess is that none of these are based on standard web technology because this technology simply isn't up to such tasks". Current payment networks run on established protocols and are bound to remote, private, proprietary datastores and services. It's not that the web technologies (or more generally: open source, web-accessible technologies) "aren't up to the task", it's that you're faced with basically 2 choices:
> 1) Create a broad interface that strings together everything needed to transact payments between all the existing sources and services, then hope everyone in a huge ecosystem of non-standard, non-interoperable payments makes it happen.
> 2) Integrate an open source, web-accessible value transmission protocol into UAs that leaps beyond existing, proprietary sources.
> #1 is hard, it's damn hard.
> #2 is a long-game option, but we could start today if we accepted that we should deal with legacy and emerging, trustless payment systems as separate initiatives.
> Warning - I'm going to say it: We could propose UAs integrate code that understands how to deal with blockchains (in general), then create a set of APIs that make payments over these newer mediums a snap for developers.
> ***ducks***
> The fact of the matter is we have a standard, open protocol for worldwide payments today, and that's Bitcoin (gasp). Is it adopted by the majority of consumers yet? No. Will it ever be? I don't know. What I do know is:
> - It could provide value to developers today
> - It's a far more attainable goal
> - It's right there waiting for people to use it
> Why not take a shot at this?
> - Daniel
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Anders Rundgren [anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 03, 2014 11:48 PM
> *To:* Web Payments CG
> *Subject:* P2P Payments
> P2P payments are established in many places in the world.  My guess is that none of these are based on standard web technology because this technology simply isn't up to such tasks; it will take many years to get on par with "Apps", if even possible.
> It is sad but the web is lagging and the lag is increasing due to the success of Android and iOS.
> Anders (on Android)
Received on Friday, 5 December 2014 07:50:15 UTC

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