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Web Payments Telecon Minutes for 2013-05-01

From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 14:06:58 -0400
Message-ID: <518159C2.6090806@digitalbazaar.com>
To: Web Payments <public-webpayments@w3.org>
Thanks to Dave Longley for scribing! The minutes for today's telecon
are now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for archival purposes at the W3C.
Audio of the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

Web Payments Community Group Telecon Minutes for 2013-05-01

   1. Introductions
   2. Web Payments - Collaborating Organizations
   3. Web Payments - Collaboration Timeline
   4. PaySwarm / Mozilla's Payment mozPay() API
   5. Persona / Web Keys
   6. Web Keys / IETF HTTP Signatures
   7. Next Telecon - mozPay API
   Manu Sporny
   Dave Longley
   Natasha Rooney, Manu Sporny, Dave Longley, Brent Shambaugh,
   David I. Lehn, Mark Cavage, John Foliot, Ian Myles,
   Pindar Wong

Natasha Rooney: Manu, I might need to just attend on IRC - big
   meeting happening here at GSMA today, but I will be paying
Manu Sporny: ok Natasha, thanks for the update - we'll be
   recording the audio for the call, so you can always listen to it
   later (or just read the minutes)
Dave Longley is scribing.
Manu Sporny:  today is basically going to be a review of
   everything that has been going on in the past month/month and a
Manu Sporny:  and an update for each one of the projects
Brent Shambaugh:  does web payments collaboration go into what's
   going on in various groups, etc.?
Manu Sporny:  yes, and we'll put down a timeline for what's going
   on in the future
Manu Sporny:  are there any updates/changes to the agenda?
David I. Lehn: if we have time we could talk about the recent
   rise of crypto currencies in the public and how that fits into
   this work

Topic: Introductions

Manu Sporny:  my name is Manu Sporny. I'm currently the chair of
   RDFa, JSON-LD, and web payments groups at W3C. Also CEO of
   Digital Bazaar, our primary interest is in figuring out a way to
   build payments into the core architecture of the Web.
Dave Longley:  my name is Dave Longley - co-founder and CTO of
   Digital Bazaar. Spend most of my time doing software/spec design
   and implementation for PaySwarm. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
David I. Lehn:  Work on PaySwarm specs/work and commercial
   implementations of it. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Mark Cavage:  I'm Mark Cavage. I'm a software engineer at Joyent
   and was also in charge of a group that did
   identity/authentication at Amazon Web Services. I wrote the
   http-signature spec we'll be discussing later.
John Foliot:  Good morning, my name is John Foliot. I'm a member
   of various W3C groups and task forces. I work for JP Morgan
   Chase, this caught my interest, I'm looking to see what's going
   on in this area. Pesonal interest, not representing my employer.
Ian Myles:  Hi, my name is Ian Myles from JP Morgan Chase - John
   Foliot let me know about this, here as an observer, not
   representing my employer in any way.
Brent Shambaugh:  i'm Brent Shambaugh. I'm looking into Web
   Payments, it's kind of a long story, i began looking into this
   with online web economies. Melvin Carvalho directed me here. I'm
   working on the MNDF distributed economy project
   http://bshambaugh.org/MNDF_Project.html . I'm interested in web
   payments in a more holistic view of how it would all work
Natasha Rooney:  I'm Natasha Rooney from the GSM Association. We
   represent 800 mobile operators in over 220 different countries. I
   run the w3c stuff from within the GSMA and we're interested in
   web payments there because we like things that work with money
Pindar Wong:  Hi, this is Pindar Wong from Creative Commons /
   Asia-Pacific Internet Association. Based out of Hong Kong. I've
   been interested in financial topography for several years. I've
   been following the group for a while, I'm interested in financial
   policy, etc. and relation to taxes/banking and sales of digital
   assets and intellectual property.
Manu Sporny:  Mozilla, and Telefonica in the EU, send in their
   regrets for today. A few other companies are waiting for
   clearance from their legal departments to join us on these calls.
   The next call is may 15 and they may join then.

Topic: Web Payments - Collaborating Organizations

Manu Sporny:  There have been multiple companies that have shown
   interest now in participating. Mozilla working on the mozPay()
   API. Digital Bazaar working on PaySwarm. Telefonica (Mozilla's
   partner for mozPay API and Firefox OS). We have the IETF HTTP 2.0
   WG, specifically the HTTP Auth Working Group. Some participants
   from the WebCrypto API group at W3C and some members from the
   standards body for GSM mobile devices (GSMA).
Manu Sporny:  they are based out of the EU, and we also have some
   other people interested from various smaller companies.
Manu Sporny:  any questions about the companies/people interested
   in participating in the web payments work?
Manu Sporny:  the goal is to try and get more and more companies
   involved, specifically more browser vendors, over the next couple
   of months, and then banking and financial companies.
Manu Sporny:  That's one of the reasons I'm glad you joined the
   call, John (Foliot) for that reason
Manu Sporny:  Let's move on to the timeline for Web Payments Work

Topic: Web Payments - Collaboration Timeline

Manu Sporny:  the idea here is that we're trying to get the web
   payments work kicked off at the w3c and we're trying to figure
   out which set of specifications will be the first in the pipe at
Manu Sporny:  and how to coordinate with a number of the
   aforementioned companies
Manu Sporny:  in may we're trying to work with mozilla to get the
   mozPay API formatted into a w3c spec
Manu Sporny:  right now it's on the mozilla wiki, we'll
   transition that to w3c
John Foliot: Need to be 100% clear that I am here as an
   interested individual, and not representing my employer. *VERY
Manu Sporny:  in june there's a w3c advisory committee meeting,
   there's currently a headlights program at w3c that is trying to
   figure out if web payments should be a big part of the late
   2013-2014 big plans
Manu Sporny:  if enough companies/people say web payments are a
   priority, then the hope is that a working group will be created
   around web payments
Manu Sporny:  that's happening in june, we're trying to get
   support from w3c companies to get the web payments stuff started
Brent Shambaugh:  if you follow the bitcoin forums, it would be
   an interesting thing to watch to see people associating urls with
   payments, etc.
Manu Sporny:  we want bitcoin to be able to work with the specs
   we created, either via the mozPay api or via the payswarm specs,
   we want to keep our eyes on that over the next year
Manu Sporny:  earlier in the year we talked with some core
   bitcoin developers and they were very interested in the web
   payments work
Manu Sporny:  we have been talking with the ietf on how to
   standardize the spec that mark cavage wrote (http-signatures)
Manu Sporny:  we hope to get something published very quickly (by
   july) via IETF on http-signatures
Mark Cavage:  i think that's great, i hope that one of the things
   you get out of this call is figuring out exactly what that work
   entails, i haven't done an IETF spec before, but i know that Dave
   Longley has been lookign at the spec and reviewing it (and David
   Lehn has been making some code changes to the implementation)
Mark Cavage:  i know there are perl and python implementations as
   well, we'll have to look at the deltas there (and get things
   synced up)
Manu Sporny:  so that's july the ietf http-signatures spec
Manu Sporny:  i've been invited to speak at sibos by peter who
   runs innotribe, etc. and swift and they are interested in web
   payments and they'd like to be involved in that work in some way
Manu Sporny:  that's happening in september
Manu Sporny:  in october of this year i'm hoping to figure out
   some way of going to the internet governments forum
Manu Sporny:  pindar do you have anything to say about that?
Pindar Wong:  a lot of these issues bring together payments,
   taxation, intellectual property, and Internet Governance. I'm
   hoping that you'll be able to go to Bali, Indonesia for a high
   level meeting with *a number* of delegates and discuss Web
Manu Sporny:  The Internet Identity Workshop and the Internet
   Governance Forum in Bali happen at the same time
Manu Sporny:  so we're trying to get someone else from web
   payments go to the identity work shop so i can go to bali
Manu Sporny:  We plan to, in the november/december timeframe,
   have a workshop on web payments via W3C.
Manu Sporny:  so it's going to be a very full year related to web
Manu Sporny:  this year the interest is very strong
Manu Sporny:  any questions about the timeline before we move on?
John Foliot: Manu, is that schedule/calendar posted anywhere?
Manu Sporny:  no the schedule is not posted yet, i'll be sending
   it to the web payments mailing list, does that work?
John Foliot: yes

Topic: PaySwarm / Mozilla's Payment mozPay() API

Manu Sporny: Introduction to the Mozilla Payments API:

Manu Sporny:  mozilla's mozPay api was introduced in April of
   this year, just last month, there's a link to a post about it in
   IRC. It's about being able to do payment in the browser whilst
   being agnostic to the payment network, the idea is to support
   multiple payment methods all through one payment API
Manu Sporny:  They are launching this on the telefonica phones
   that the firefox os will be running on
Manu Sporny: PaySwarm also had a commercial release in April of
   this year - http://blog.meritora.com/launch/
Manu Sporny:  we need to get that mozPay api into a w3c spec and
   figure out how the various systems will integrate
Manu Sporny:  there is a commercial implementation of PaySwarm
   that launched in April
Manu Sporny: More details here about the identity system for

Manu Sporny: Products for sale on the web via PaySwarm:
Manu Sporny: and how to do a purchase via PaySwarm:

Manu Sporny:  the specs we've been working on for the past 2
   years now have a commercial implementation behind them, the
   launch is just in the US for now, and uses US dollars, but we
   cover identity online and how to link payments and identity, how
   to mark up products for sale on the web, and how to do an actual
   purchase using PaySwarm
Manu Sporny:  all of these are talked about in a 3-part series on
   a mozilla hacks post
Manu Sporny:  the number one goal is to make the payments API in
   the browser payment-network agnostic
Manu Sporny:  the idea here is that multiple different vendors
   could come in and provide various different methods of payment
   mechanism through the browser
Manu Sporny:  and all of these things play into figuring out how
   we make all of these things happen in the web payments group
Manu Sporny:  any questions on mozilla's payments API at this
Brent Shambaugh:  there's a lot of stuff going on, we're
   interested in figuring out where we come into all this
Manu Sporny:  there is a lot of work in front of us so the more
   people we have involved in the CG and the WG the better off we'll
Manu Sporny:  the more people that are heavily involved in the CG
   the better because when the WG starts up, we'll be able to
   transition those people over to the WG and we won't have to spend
   time trying to figure out who is working on what
Manu Sporny:  any comments or questions on the mozPay
   api/PaySwarm specs?

Topic: Persona / Web Keys

Manu Sporny: Persona beta 2 just launched earlier this month:
Manu Sporny:  the set of PaySwarm specifications specify its own
   identity mechanism that overlaps slightly with Mozilla's Persona
Manu Sporny:  persona is about a single sign-on mechanism for the
Manu Sporny:  that link talks about what identity on the web
   means, and is about making sign on more secure by getting rid of
   passwords, etc.
Manu Sporny: PaySwarm also has an identity mechanism that
   overlaps by a fairly sizeable amount:

Manu Sporny:  we also have an identity solution in payswarm that
   is a bit different
Manu Sporny: It's based off of this public keys for the Web spec:
Manu Sporny:  we have something called a web keys specification
   that turns the web into a public key infrastructure system
Manu Sporny:  the idea here is to figure out a way to get web
   keys and persona to work together
Manu Sporny:  so we don't end up with two different identity
Manu Sporny:  where you'd use persona to log into the web and the
   web keys stuff to do payments
Manu Sporny:  hopefully we can merge them
Manu Sporny:  it would be a big failure to standardize if we
   can't figure that out
Manu Sporny:  we're in contact with ben adida, lloyd, dan calahan
   in the person community
Manu Sporny:  i worked closely with ben adida on rdfa, they are
   interested in making web keys and persona work together
Manu Sporny:  any questions about persona/web keys?

Topic: Web Keys / IETF HTTP Signatures

Manu Sporny: Web Keys is introduced here:

Manu Sporny: The Web Keys spec is here:
Manu Sporny: The HTTP Signatures spec is here:
Manu Sporny:  we (Digital Bazaar) had created a Web Keys spec to
   sign JSON blobs, and we also wanted the ability to sign HTTP
   requests (at a lower level) but do it in a way that allowed
   people publish keys anywhere on the web
Manu Sporny:  so this is about allowing http requests (for
   authentication) to be signed using a PKI that lives on the web
Mark Cavage:  for context, i am one of the lead software
   engineers at joyent and we have a slew of REST apis, before this
   i was the lead engineer at the amazon web services team, so i've
   been working with authenticated REST APIs for quite a while,
   there really is no ope nspec that solves this problem nicely, i
   think, most of what is out there was based on HMAC, and having
   done things with HMAC i have no interest in doing symmetric key
   management again because it's a nightmare, when i wrote this most
   of the talk was coming out of the oauth spec which is basically
   hmac/a cookie
Mark Cavage:  so that's sort of the motivation for having written
   it, to avoid HMAC and have something that works
Mark Cavage:  one of the nice properties of what we did is
   ultimately that we just use our customer's ssh keys
Mark Cavage:  certainly technical power users are able to reuse
   that key management system
Mark Cavage:  longer term one of the things that we wanted with
   the spec was to use smart card technology and have people
   maintain their keys on that
Mark Cavage:  i personally at joyent am very delighted that you
   guys have picked this up
Mark Cavage:  we're very interested in getting this pushed
   through at IETF/W3c
Mark Cavage:  that's the background for where it came from and
   where it exists and right now there's no real alternative, still,
   that i see
Manu Sporny:  to fill in the other side of it, we came across
   mark's spec (dave lehn did) and saw that it fits in really nicely
   with web keys and that it belongs at the IETF, etc. and it
   integrated cleanly and nicely
Manu Sporny:  we're in a lot of agreement with mark w/hmac, etc.
   and the approach this spec took
Manu Sporny:  there was some initial push back at the IETF http
   authentication group
Manu Sporny:  but that's because there's a lot of other work
   going on there
Manu Sporny:  and some of it has to do with creating sessions
   ,etc. and we're not interested in sessions for REST APIs, etc.
Manu Sporny:  and the http-signature spec is clean and simple to
   use and build on top of, so i think we can see some progress
   getting it through
Manu Sporny:  one of the questions mark had was how does the
   process work to getting an RFC out
Manu Sporny:  i talked to the technical lead on this at IETF and
   we just need to put the http-signature spec into an RFC format
   and publish it anywhere on the web
Manu Sporny:  we'll probably publish it on the payswarm website
   first and then through the http auth IETF working group
Manu Sporny:  anyone can publish an experimental spec there
Manu Sporny:  and then we'll have a long slew of arguments about
   the benefits and drawbacks of http signatures over HOBA and
   multifactor authentication, etc.
Manu Sporny:  there are several other specs in the running and
   we'll see if http signatures can stand on its own or get absorbed
   into another one
Manu Sporny:  i feel that a large amount of the technical work is
   done at this point, unless we find some kind of security
   vulnerability with it
Manu Sporny:  do you agree with that general summary and
   approach, Mark?
Mark Cavage:  yes, i don't see any problems with that, and
   wherever it ends up, as its own standalone spec, or absorbed into
   another spec, anything would be better than how it is alone now
Manu Sporny:  any other comments on the http-signature stuff,

Topic: Next Telecon

Manu Sporny:  the purpose of the q/a on the next telecon will be
   about figuring out how to get persona/payswarm/mozpay to work
   together, etc. and what the long term goals are to integrate,
Manu Sporny:  it should be a very interesting call because it
   will be about the main driver behind the web payments work
Natasha Rooney:  i will be on a flight during that next call
Manu Sporny:  we'll see if other people want to move the call,
   but it's always difficult to get everyone together at a
   particular time
Manu Sporny:  we make announcements about all of these calls and
   the technical discussion on the web payments mailing list
Dave Longley:  I think we should also mention that there are two
   public webpayments mailing lists. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  Yes, this group operates on
   public-webpayments@w3.org - see
Manu Sporny:  next call will be May 15th, thanks everyone!

-- manu

Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)
Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Meritora - Web payments commercial launch
Received on Wednesday, 1 May 2013 18:07:22 UTC

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