W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webid@w3.org > October 2012

Re: privacy definitions -- was: WebID questions

From: Ben Laurie <benl@google.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 14:54:04 +0100
Message-ID: <CABrd9SSju23DE=Ru_OhaZDDiqNia8sOAtm0z8c1do7zeK3H9vQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Cc: "Jonas Hogberg K.O" <jonas.k.o.hogberg@ericsson.com>, Carvalho Melvin <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>, "public-philoweb@w3.org" <public-philoweb@w3.org>, "public-webid@w3.org" <public-webid@w3.org>, Oshani Seneviratne <oshani@mit.edu>
On 1 October 2012 14:51, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:
>
> On 1 Oct 2012, at 15:46, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1 October 2012 14:41, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 1 Oct 2012, at 15:36, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1 October 2012 14:07, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1 Oct 2012, at 14:35, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1 October 2012 13:20, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1 Oct 2012, at 13:43, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 30 September 2012 20:22, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 30 Sep 2012, at 20:46, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 30 September 2012 10:30, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 29 Sep 2012, at 19:50, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 September 2012 15:26, Jonas Hogberg K.O
>>>>>>>>>>>> <jonas.k.o.hogberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> At
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://blogs.kuppingercole.com/kearns/2012/09/25/in-search-of-privacy/?goback=.gde_3480266_member_168314336,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Kearns writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is indeed a lot of confusion about the subject, but there are two key
>>>>>>>>>>>>> phrases to remember when talking about privacy:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Privacy is not anonymity
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Privacy is not secrecy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Quoting those out of context is not particularly helpful. But for more
>>>>>>>>>>>> on why anonymity is important for privacy...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.links.org/?p=123
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.links.org/?p=124
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Looking at those two, can we agree that we agree that anonymity should be the default?
>>>>>>>>>>> I believe as you do that when I go to a web site the default should be that I not be
>>>>>>>>>>> identified, and not be tracked. I can choose later to be tracked or identified for
>>>>>>>>>>> that site for a given amount of time or until I change my mind, but the default should
>>>>>>>>>>> be anonymity.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ( Within limits of logic of course. If I tell anonymous Y something P
>>>>>>>>>>> which has consequence Q, and some other anonymous Z does something with Q that would have
>>>>>>>>>>> been nearly impossible to know had they not known P, then I could conclude within
>>>>>>>>>>> a certain probability that  Y == Z )
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The web provides this. Some browsers provide it better than others, but really
>>>>>>>>>>> this is up to them. It is not perfect: ip addresses can be tracked and dns lookups
>>>>>>>>>>> can be tracked. But the web is not reliant on those. It could be deployed just as well
>>>>>>>>>>> on top of Tor. Had people had better memories, we could have had .onion urls plastered
>>>>>>>>>>> on bus stops since the beginning.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anonymity is important for many reasons. Among which is that it helps create a trusted
>>>>>>>>>>> public sphere. It increases my trust in the information I read if I know that the publisher
>>>>>>>>>>> publishes that information that can be read by anonymous readers. Knowing that the publisher
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot tell who is reading what he is publishing is a very strong guarantee that he
>>>>>>>>>>> is not adapting his message to different groups. Oddly enough anonymity has an important role
>>>>>>>>>>> therefore in public discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So do we agree here? I think we do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So far.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ok. So let's see if we can agree further, from here :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are a number of identification options available.
>>>>>>>>> Let me list some of them:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - anonymous ( 0 identification )
>>>>>>>>> - cookies   ( site bound )
>>>>>>>>> - TLS-Origin-Bound-Certificates ( unforgeable cookies )
>>>>>>>>> - Self-Signed certificates with an .onion WebID
>>>>>>>>>     ( I promised Appelbaum to work on that. This gives you an identity, but nobody knows
>>>>>>>>>       where you or your server are located )
>>>>>>>>> - Self-Signed certificates with a http(s) WebID
>>>>>>>>> - CA Signed Certificates
>>>>>>>>> - DNSSEC Signed Certificates
>>>>>>>>> - ...?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We agree that anonymous should be the default.
>>>>>>>>> I think we can agree as a matter of simple fact that none of the browsers show
>>>>>>>>> you which of those modes you are in when looking at a web page. You cannot
>>>>>>>>> as a user therefore tell if you are anonymous or not. You cannot therefore tell
>>>>>>>>> if the page you are looking at has been tweaked for you or if it would appear
>>>>>>>>> differently to someone else in the same mode as you. You cannot tell if the
>>>>>>>>> agent on the other side can tie you to a browsing history or not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well let me put this in a more nuanced way: you can tell the above from the
>>>>>>>>> side-effects - say if they should you your profile on a google+ page with edit mode
>>>>>>>>> allowed - but that is up to the server to show you that. We both want it to be
>>>>>>>>> up to the user. We don't want it to be up to the user in some complicated conf file
>>>>>>>>> hidden away somewhere. We both want it to be in your face, transparent. I should
>>>>>>>>> in an eyeblink be able to tell if I am anonymous or not, and I should be able
>>>>>>>>> to switch from one mode to the next if and when I want to in a simple easy gesture.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just as in real life when we put on a mask we know that we are wearing the mask,
>>>>>>>>> so on the web we want to know what mask we are wearing at all times.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> These are the improvements I have been fighting ( not alone ) to get browsers to
>>>>>>>>> implement. Are we fighting on the same side here?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree that it is desirable to know how your browser is identifying
>>>>>>>> you and to be able to switch between users. So, I guess Chrome would
>>>>>>>> claim that the facility to have multiple users provides this. Do you
>>>>>>>> disagree?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I looked up multiple Users and found this:
>>>>>>> http://support.google.com/chrome/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=2364824
>>>>>>> I had not seen this before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So it seems to work for certificates. I created a new user Tester, and
>>>>>>> noticed the following as that Tester:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 0. It did not have any of my bookmarks ( I suppose that's useful, cause your
>>>>>>> bookmarks could identify you )
>>>>>>> 1. When I went to Google+ it did not know I was
>>>>>>> 2. Having signed in to https://my-profile.eu/ as the old user, I tried as the
>>>>>>>  new user Tester, and had to select a certificate again. Good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So that seems like one way to separate one's personalities. I'd still like to
>>>>>>> have the url bar show me for each tab:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [anonymous] when I am not logged in
>>>>>>> [cookie] when I am tracked on that site
>>>>>>> [henry story] for a local site identity
>>>>>>> [bblfish@home] when I am using a certificate
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the option of logging out from that site (ie checking x -> anonymous ). Because
>>>>>>> currently I could forget that I had chosen a certificate on a site, and it
>>>>>>> would continue sending it. Or I could mistakenly choose a certificate as one user,
>>>>>>> and then decide that was the wrong user for that persona, and not be able to choose
>>>>>>> the certificate again, without closing my browser completely. That would allow, on
>>>>>>> browser startup, the browser to remember the last identity choice for a site. Without
>>>>>>> logout capability that is not possible, because then it would be impossible to repair
>>>>>>> an identity mistake without creating a new user. (And it makes testing tedious).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently when I close my browser, on restart the servers ask me for my certificate again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So it looks like this is going generally in the right direction. It still does not provide
>>>>>>> the transparency we are looking for at the UI level above. But thanks for pointing this out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I think we agree that what is missing is the transparency at the UI level of which identity
>>>>>>> one is using at each site. That is what I was hoping the following bug report would achieve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=29784
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So perhaps by putting this forward under the term transparency, that would help that bug report
>>>>>>> progress, since otherwise they could thing that the issue had already been completely solved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So that's what I make of that. But have I missed something? Or do we agree there too?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think so
>>>>>> . As I said, I think that Chrome would claim that the
>>>>>> users facility provides everything you need - if you want to know
>>>>>> which cert you're using, then have a user per cert. As for cookies and
>>>>>> "local site identities", this would require information the browser
>>>>>> does not currently have, so I think you would first have to explain
>>>>>> how it is going to get that information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well the browser knows when it sends a cookie. So showing a [cookie]
>>>>> icon would be easy there. When you are in anonymous mode it does not
>>>>> send a cookie. (perhaps a no-cookie/cert icon - would be more precise)
>>>>> As for per site identity that is what the Mozilla folks were working
>>>>> with Aza Raskin
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/identity-in-the-browser-firefox/
>>>>>
>>>>> But until a standard is agree to there, one could already have
>>>>> a [cookie] icon...
>>>>
>>>> Sure, but it would be pretty pointless: I just checked and every
>>>> single tab I have open has some cookies associated.
>>>
>>> So perhaps then only show anonymous when no cookie is there.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> For anonymous, Chrome already has an anonymous mode (though note that
>>>>>> you don't really stay anonymous for long once you enter it, since it
>>>>>> must still use cookies or the 'net stops working - also bookmarks are
>>>>>> still available in anon mode).
>>>>>
>>>>> As above the browser knows when it sends cookies: and so it can show
>>>>> the user that it is doing that.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that Chrome experimented with per-tab personas and found
>>>>>> that it was a terrible user experience, btw.
>>>>>
>>>>> It does not look that bad in Aza Raskin's proposal, and the Account
>>>>> Manager work at Mozilla
>>>>>
>>>>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Labs/Weave/Identity/Account_Manager
>>>>>
>>>>> My guess is that the project to create the multiple user work
>>>>> at Chrome trumped the development of good identity transparency
>>>>> solutions. That often happens in engineering: one good idea
>>>>> hides another one for a while.
>>>>
>>>> Or, as I said, it turns out to not work very well. That happens even
>>>> more often, and apparently has happened in this case. Saying it
>>>> doesn't look that bad to you doesn't change it!
>>>
>>> Look if we are serious thinkers we first select our principles and
>>> then we search for a solution. It may be that we have not found the
>>> solution, yet. But since we have established an important principle of
>>> transparency, we keep looking until we find the solution. I am
>>> not dictating the solution. I am saying we agreed on a principle,
>>> so it is now a question of solving it in good will.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In any case there is a lack of transparency in the multiple user
>>>>> set up that still needs to be rectified. How that is done I'll leave
>>>>> to UI experts. But I'll recognise a good solution whatever form it
>>>>> takes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now here with WebID we are assuming such a solution will be found
>>>>> by one of the browser vendors in good time, and then adopted by the
>>>>> others. The current interface  we can agree is not good enough for
>>>>> sure, but the problems we are trying to  solve are  important enough
>>>>> that we can work with the current limitations of browser.
>>>>
>>>> Who is the "we" that can agree it? And why is it not good enough? You
>>>> have not explained that at all.
>>>
>>> I did explain it. But it must have gotten lost in some threads.
>>> I'll start a new thread on that.
>>
>> Specifically, I am asking why the users facility that Chrome has is
>> not good enough...
>
> Because I cannot tell:
>
>  - when I am anonymous ( as opposed to being tracked without my knowing it)
>  - what identity I am using when on that site: and this is just as valid for
> cookie identification as for certificate identification. I can have multiple
> profile accounts associated with different cookies. I can have multiple
> identifying certificates. I want _my_browser_ to tell me which one I am using,
> and not have to rely on the server, which may have more or less good
> implementations for this.

The idea is you create a user per identity. Then the browser is
telling you which you are using.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That leaves us with the importance of cross site identity. I think
>>>>> I have a very powerful argument in favour of its importance. It is
>>>>> important for a certain kind of privacy to be possible: that between
>>>>> two people or groups of people wishing to exchange documents that
>>>>> should only be visible to certain people and no others. This is the
>>>>> case when someone wishes to discuss something with a doctor, or when
>>>>> someone wishes to publish photos of people at a party without making
>>>>> it fully public, and in many many other circumstances.  It is important
>>>>> for creating a distributed social network, which I will call the
>>>>> Social Web.  The Web and the internet have always been about distribution
>>>>> and decentralisation of information. We want to do that using WebID in
>>>>> a manner that increases privacy. I will be working on showing how
>>>>> this can be done on the Web, and on the Web running over Tor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Henry
>>>>>
>>>>> Social Web Architect
>>>>> http://bblfish.net/
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Social Web Architect
>>> http://bblfish.net/
>>>
>
> Social Web Architect
> http://bblfish.net/
>
Received on Monday, 1 October 2012 13:59:49 UTC

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