- From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:47:29 -0400
- To: "public-webevents@w3.org" <public-webevents@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the October 15 voice conference are available at <http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-webevents-minutes.html> and copied below. WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send them to the public-webevents mail list before 22 October 2013. In the absence of any changes, these minutes will be considered approved. -AB [1]W3C [1] http://www.w3.org/ - DRAFT - Web Events WG Voice Conference 15 Oct 2013 [2]Agenda [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2013OctDec/0012.html See also: [3]IRC log [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-webevents-irc Attendees Present Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Rick_Byers, Christophe_Jolif, Olli_Pettay, Sangwhan_Moon, Doug_Schepers, Sebastien_Pereira Regrets Scott_Gonzαlez Chair Art Scribe Art Contents * [4]Topics 1. [5]Tweak agenda 2. [6]Publishing Working Group Note of TEv2 spec 3. [7]Touch Events / Pointer Events mapping 4. [8]AoB * [9]Summary of Action Items __________________________________________________________ <smaug> uh, I need a minute or two <scribe> Scribe: Art <scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB <cjolif> +cjolif Tweak agenda AB: I submitted a draft agenda on October 11 [10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2013Oc tDec/0012.html. Since then, IBM notified us of some work they have done re PointerEvent and TouchEvent mapping so I propose we include that when we discuss mapping. ... any objections to that? [10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2013OctDec/0012.html. RB: no, this is great AB: any other change requests? ... Christophe, please give a short intro CJ: Sebastien is more knowledgable here but I can fill in for him since he can't make it today our context is Dojo need to map TE to PE to help standardize the way we deal with mouse, touch, pointerevnts PE isn't there today so need to make a mapping to complete our impl We noticed this group intends to work on this mapping so we hope our work can help this group The mapping is in a spreadsheet We think our work will be helpful Publishing Working Group Note of TEv2 spec AB: We previously agreed to publish Touch Events v2 spec as a "WG Note" which signifies work on that spec has stopped. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume that is still our `Plan of Record`. ... is that still the case? RB: fine with me think we should publish something DS: I think a Note is reasonable AB: personally, I don't recall the compelling reasons to publish a v2 Note, that is, I'm not convinced there is a `problem` that is solved by publishing this Note. On the other hand, I don't see anything about it that is `harmful`. RB: so, what if we don't publish anything? is what we have adequate? we don't want it to get implemented AB: we never even published a FPWD of v2 Note is clear signal the work has stopped DS: if we think v2 reflects some impl, then I think a Note is probably better <sangwhan> Do we want to have certain implementations that portions of v2 as is? Shouldn't the v2 specifics be reverted if the work is officially stopped and the spec is considered scrapped? it gives us a chance to add some context and rationale publishing a Note is light weight so I feel more comfortable with publishing a Note RB: Olli, does v2 match FF impl? OP: not sure; we need to talk to Matt <sangwhan> For the sake of interop I'm not sure having certain implementations provide subsets of features of v2 is a good idea I don't care if Note or ED Both say "don't implement it" RB: the only part of v2 we implement is the radius stuff having those mentioned somewhere is important but if FF enters touch{enter,leave} that would be important OP: but we don't RB: think it is in the MDN docs AB: without Matt, not comfortable reversing our PoR so that is what we will do AB: so what changes are High Prio? RB: remove section 5.7 and 5.8 assuming no one has implemented those AB: Sangwhan? SM: no, we don't implement those RB: some additional props on the Touch object want to leave the radius props AB: we also need to update some of the Web IDL that was buggy before Boris noted those errors ... any other changes? RB: instead of publishing everything as is, we could just publish those additional pieces i.e. 3.1 would be a lot less work DS: seems reasonable to me OP: no one will look at the Note so I don't think it matters much I recommend minimum amount of work SM: do we have some boilerplate for the top? DS: there is some precedence e.g. Web Storage AB: good Q; we need a propoasl for the obsolecence text RB: think we should listen to Matt AB: I think that's a good idea <smaug> [11]http://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/ is pretty clear about its status [11] http://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/ <scribe> ACTION: barstow followup with Matt re if TEv2 Note should be `full spec` or just the `extra pieces` that have been implemented [recorded in [12]http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-webevents-minutes.html#action0 1] <trackbot> Created ACTION-105 - Followup with matt re if tev2 note should be `full spec` or just the `extra pieces` that have been implemented [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-10-22]. Touch Events / Pointer Events mapping AB: we agreed a while ago to create a TE and PE mapping document. The following e-mail I sent last week summarizes this topic [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2013Oc tDec/0011.html. ... we also now have a related input from IBM [14]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvdBn9Kvx22qdG RnRXNPb0ZBTUl3SEkwdUdtaW9pWWc&usp=sharing#gid=2 ... before digging into any details, perhaps it would be helpful if we stepped back a bit to talk about the `Problem Statement` here, f.ex. what is the problem we want to address, who is the audience, what is the scope, etc. ... Rick, your thoughts? [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2013OctDec/0011.html. [14] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvdBn9Kvx22qdGRnRXNPb0ZBTUl3SEkwdUdtaW9pWWc&usp=sharing#gid=2 RB: we know there is some tricky interaction here want to reduce pain for the Web developers want browser authors to have some info about how to handle these interaction how does css touch action property work how is default handled there are some other diffs between PE and TE that need to be documented f.ex. with mouse interaction it's unclear how browsers should handle the various cases when the browser supports both TE and PE The various polyfills need answers to these Qs (Dojo, Polymer, etc.) When sites bits of a page that support one or the other, things are complex SM: also want to know about PE and caret browsing there are some places where caret browsing doesn't work RB: it's going to be even worse for browser that support both of these events AB: Sebastien, please give us a summary of your work SP: we started with some common user tasks first was click 2nd was swipe from each action, we observed the behaviour from various browsers some browsers support only TE, some only PE We noted the sequence of Touch events and Pointer events need to map the sequence of TEs to PEs The second step was to identify patterns of TEs to PEs Every browser has a different sequence of events but we found a way to generate consistent Pointer events Not sure if this is what you were looking for AB: what do people think? RB: I just saw this yesterday this is great data of existing behavior I've been working on a doc re behavior and noting differences IBM's doc is more thorough SP: want to get consistent behavior across browsers wondering if this could be standardized to get consistent behavior RB: re Col F, do you think that is consistent with the PE spec? SP: I think what we have is consistent with the PE spec we are also implementing some stuff that is not specified f.ex. how click will behave preventdefault is implemented differently depending on the gesture still is ongoing work but I think it is close to the PE spec RB: when you find things that disagree with PE spec, please let us know agree no info re single and double click for PE is not documented there are some IP reasons why behavior like that is not specified in W3C OP: need to define order of touch and pointer events RB: yes, and how one cancels the other OP: what about FF on mobile? SP: we didn't include it yet but it could be added RB: one conclusion, there is a lot of detail that needs to be documented for browsers and polyfills must get consistency I think this doc is helpful but this is just one piece Must also define the interleaving of PEs and TEs SP: yes, the goal is for the dev to only have to care about Pointer Events RB: so, interleaving isn't an issue in that case SP: correct although there will of course be cases like that but that isn't a primary task for us RB: would like you to help with our mapping doc SP: yes, we can do that RB: please feel free to reach out to me re Chrome's behavior <rbyers_> Here's my doc on touch event details across browsers: <rbyers_> [15]https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/document/d/12k_LL_Ot9G jF8zGWP9eI_3IMbSizD72susba0frg44Y/edit [15] https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/document/d/12k_LL_Ot9GjF8zGWP9eI_3IMbSizD72susba0frg44Y/edit [16]https://docs.google.com/document/d/12-HPlSIF7-ISY8TQHtuQ3Iq Di-isZVI0Yzv5zwl90VU/edit [16] https://docs.google.com/document/d/12-HPlSIF7-ISY8TQHtuQ3IqDi-isZVI0Yzv5zwl90VU/edit AB: ooops; sorry <rbyers_> Sorry, this is it: [17]https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/12k_LL_Ot 9GjF8zGWP9eI_3IMbSizD72susba0frg44Y/edit [17] https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/12k_LL_Ot9GjF8zGWP9eI_3IMbSizD72susba0frg44Y/edit SP: we will check this RB: so, how do we move forward AB: I'd like to get this work done by mid November RB: I think a lot of the details that are important can't be documented until we get more experience we could always shorten our scope don't think we'll understand interleave and other subtel issues for a while need to get PE out and deployed AB: if we used something like a wiki for the mapping, we could close the group and still let the mapping doc evolve DS: I see some conflicting requirements here I think we need to keep moving toward closing this group I don't see IBM's doc something that maps directly to a W3C spec If the doc is more prescriptive i.e. "we expect browsers to do X in scenarios Y/Z" We can also revisit defining the mapping in the PE Working Group but we must be very careful with that approach DS: if it's an informative doc, we can use a wiki or WebPlatform.org <sangwhan> What if it is both? but if it is more prescriptive for browsers, it should be Note <sangwhan> (as in, reference for implementors but also helpful for web developers) I suspect we can get an extension RB: I think we want a doc that is advice for browser implementers DS: but that is not what IBM has RB: yes, agree SP: agree too; we can also do some more work DS: do we think we can define the "desired behavior"? if so, we should be able to define that fairly quickly RB: Column F is mostly prescriptive the larger problem is interleaving and touch-actions think we are going to need a new CSS property need to allow opt in not sure how to get that specified (e.g. which group) DS: yes, CSS WG is one option although, other groups can do so if the work is done jointly DS: perhaps we can revisit the mapping document decision within the PEWG if we need a specification, one possibility is DOM4 now part of the HTMLWG RB: the PEWG's charter doesn't explicitly state that interaction with Touch events is out of scope <scribe> ACTION: doug ask PEWG to revisit the decision to document the PE and TE mapping [recorded in [18]http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-webevents-minutes.html#action0 2] <trackbot> Created ACTION-106 - Ask pewg to revisit the decision to document the pe and te mapping [on Doug Schepers - due 2013-10-22]. <smaug> sangwhan: htmlwg perhaps? <sangwhan> smaug: :D DS: think it would be helpful if we had a very specific proposal for the PEWG f.ex. be able to say "this is the sequence of events ." RB: still need more impl and deployment experience OP: we need at least 2 impls that will take some time AB: what about moving the mapping to a CG RB: that's OK with me DS: yeah, that's worth pursuing understand we can't do detailed work on the mapping without more impl experience perhaps the CG is the right approach AB: let's work on a proposal for moving mapping to a CG or PEWG DS: ok; not clear which one is better <scribe> ACTION: barstow work with Doug on where to define the PE/TE mapping (CG, PEWG, etc.) [recorded in [19]http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-webevents-minutes.html#action0 3] <trackbot> Created ACTION-107 - Work with doug on where to define the pe/te mapping (cg, pewg, etc.) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-10-22]. SM: webkit bug for PE hasn't been progressing stuck since the Blink fork AB: thanks Sebastien and Christophe for joining our call DS: yes, thanks very much AoB AB: anything else for today? ... meeting adjourned Summary of Action Items [NEW] ACTION: barstow followup with Matt re if TEv2 Note should be `full spec` or just the `extra pieces` that have been implemented [recorded in [20]http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-webevents-minutes.html#action0 1] [NEW] ACTION: barstow work with Doug on where to define the PE/TE mapping (CG, PEWG, etc.) [recorded in [21]http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-webevents-minutes.html#action0 3] [NEW] ACTION: doug ask PEWG to revisit the decision to document the PE and TE mapping [recorded in [22]http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-webevents-minutes.html#action0 2] [End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 15 October 2013 16:55:51 UTC