- From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
- Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:53:00 -0500
- To: "public-webevents@w3.org" <public-webevents@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the November 22 voice conference are available at
the following and copied below:
http://www.w3.org/2011/11/22-webevents-minutes.html
WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send
them to the public-webevents mail list before November 29.
-AB
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Web Events WG Voice Conference
22 Nov 2011
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011OctDec/0035.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/11/22-webevents-irc
Attendees
Present
Art_Barstow, Doug_Schepers, Cathy_Chan, Suman_Sharma,
Sangwhan_Moon, Olli_Pettay, Matt_Brubeck
Regrets
Chair
Art
Scribe
Art
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Tweak Agenda
2. [6]Announcements
3. [7]Apple's patent disclosures for Touch Events v1 spec
4. [8]Touch Events v1 LCWD comment deadline ended November 17
5. [9]Contingency Plan for Touch Events spec
6. [10]Charter update
7. [11]AoB
* [12]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB
<scribe> Scribe: Art
Date: 22 November 2011
Tweak Agenda
AB: I submitted a draft agenda yesterday
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011OctDec/
0127.html. Any change requests?
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011OctDec/0127.html.
[ None ]
Announcements
AB: any short announcements for today?
[ None ]
Apple's patent disclosures for Touch Events v1 spec
AB: last week Apple disclosed 3 patents and 1 patent application
applies to the Touch Events spec
[14]http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/45559/status.
... the only information I have regarding the licensing terms for
these patents is that each is marked as " not under Royaltee-Free
commitment" [sic].
... so that leaves some uncertainty
... as a consequence of these disclosures, a Patent Advisory Group
(PAG)
[15]http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Excepti
on will be created to discuss what, if anything, the WG should do.
... the "constituents" of the PAG is documented in the Patent Policy
[16]http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-PAG-com
position. Note that WG members are not members; it is composed of AC
reps, attorneys, WG Chair and some W3C Staff. A W3C Staff member
will Chair the PAG.
... typically, PAGs take several months to reach a "PAG Conclusion"
[17]http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-PAG-con
clude. I suspect the average is around six months although I have
been a member of a PAG that was open for over two years.
... the WG may continue to work on a spec while a PAG is open. In
fact, the spec can proceed all of the way to Proposed Recommendation
while a PAG is open.
... without Member input, PAGs will drag on and on ...
... I'd be happy to open the floor to discussions about the PAG
mechanics and process but I don't want to talk about the specifics
of these patents since that is the job of the PAG.
... some Members do not want their WG participants to have any
discussions about any patents
... Lastly, although these disclosures create a lot of FUD
([18]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt), this
is part of the "game" whether we like it or not, and I won't
tolerate any Member bashing.
... and I don't mean to imply that anyone in this meeting would do
so, but that's just a general process statement
[14] http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/45559/status.
[15] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Exception
[16] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-PAG-composition.
[17] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-PAG-conclude.
[18] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear
DS: I agree with Art on this
AB: remind everyone these minutes are Public
... any questions or concerns?
DS: I'm happy to answer questions on this call
… and if anyone wants to discuss this offlist, please let me know
Touch Events v1 LCWD comment deadline ended November 17
AB: the comment deadline for the October 27 LCWD
<[19]http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-touch-events-20111027/> ended
November 17. The comment tracking doc is
[20]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/TouchEvents-LCWD-27-Oct-20
11
... the only comment submitted during LC#2 was the minor bug that
was accidentally added to the spec. That fix has been agreed and
applied.
... the PFWG has still not replied to the response we sent to them 6
weeks ago
[21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011OctDec/
0047.html re their comments for LC#1. I don't think a publication of
a CR should block waiting for PFWG
[19] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-touch-events-20111027/%3E
[20] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/TouchEvents-LCWD-27-Oct-2011
[21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011OctDec/0047.html
DS: agreed
AB: As I mentioned earlier, we may proceed to Candidate
Recommendation if we want to do so and not block on the PAG; or we
can block on the PAG "Conclusion".
... here are the PAG "conclusions":
[22]http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-PAG-con
clude
[22] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-PAG-conclude
DS: in general, I don't think conclusion #6 is in the spirit of
W3C's RF specs
… as such, I don't think that's what we want to do
MB: Mozilla will only implement and ship specs that have RF
licensing terms for implementers
<shepazu> (I expained RAND a bit)
<mbrubeck> For more elaboration of Mozilla's position on RAND vs RF
licensing, see
[23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/200
1Oct/1350.html
[23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/2001Oct/1350.html
AB: so, we can either move toward CR or block for the PAG
… I could start a 1 or 2 week CfC to move to CR
… and use that time to discuss this internally with your company/org
DS: I think moving to CR is the right thing to do
… and assume things will work out
… but we should also think about a contingency plan
AB: any other comments about starting a CfC to pub a CR
MB: I agree; no additional work is needed; the spec is ready
SM: I also agree
AB: is a 1-week CfC enough
OP: perhaps 2 would be better
DS: yes, I think that is reasonable
AB: the only thing I wanted to mention is that December 12 is the
last day to request publication for 2011
... how about a 10-day CfC?
… any objections to that
[ None ]
RESOLUTION: Art will start a 10-day CfC to publish a CR of Touch
Events v1 spec
Contingency Plan for Touch Events spec
DS: this is unfortunate;
… the folks in this WG have done good work
… I don't want to give up on a Touch Events spec
… and we got a good spec is short amount of time
… I only see 2 ways around this
… One is to circumvent any IP/claims we know about
… and that something the PAG can recommend to this WG
… I haven't looked at the patents
… so I don't have a sense of the severity
… It could be a small amount of work is needed but I don't know yet
… The 2nd option ...
… If it turns out what we defined is totally tainted, we may have to
do something else
… There are some other touch interfaces
… We adopted the Webkit model
… Mozilla had a different model
… Microsoft also has a different model
<mbrubeck> Mozilla's original approach:
[24]https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/Touch_events_%28Mozilla_exp
erimental%29
[24] https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/Touch_events_%28Mozilla_experimental%29
… It could be one of these other approaches may make sense to pursue
… I would hate to start over but it could give us an opportunity to
define a better interface
<mbrubeck> MS pointer events:
[25]http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/09/20/touch-input-for-ie
10-and-metro-style-apps.aspx
[25] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/09/20/touch-input-for-ie10-and-metro-style-apps.aspx
… Our current spec gives a good network approach given the pervasive
use of Webkit
… but there are other models to consider
… Do others think it is reasonable to consider a different starting
point?
AB: I think it's a little early but OTOH, it is perhaps inevitable
… Has anyone done any comparisons?
DS: what about fennec?
OP: we have a lower level API; pretty basic
… f.ex. no touch point lists
… much closer to mouse events
DS: I think there is more similarity b/w the mouse and touch
interface in Msft's model than our TE spec
… thus their model can make content creation easier
SS: so, if we need to re-evaluate, shouldn't we wait for the PAG
… especially if the probability is high?
DS: I think that is a reasonable stance
… but personally, I would like to keep moving forward
Suman: I understand that too Doug
… I'm just trying to understand what people are thinking
DS: want to separate the IP work the PAG will do and the technical
work the WG will do
AB: during this CfC, I think it's appropriate if responses are sent
to the group's Member-confidential list
... I hope everyone uses the 10-day CfC to get some internal
discussion
DS: one thing the PAG might do is to look at prior art
… and how the spec holds up to the prior work as opposed to the
patents
… It is possible some other Member has IP in this area too and that
could lead to a good resolution
Suman: when will this CfC end?
AB: I'll start it today, and the deadline will be 10 days from today
<scribe> ACTION: barstow start a 10-day CfC to publish CR of Touch
Events v1 spec [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2011/11/22-webevents-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Start a 10-day CfC to publish CR of
Touch Events v1 spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-11-29].
Charter update
AB: the latest Draft proposal for Touch Events WG is
[27]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/2011/Overview.html
... the latest Draft proposal for Indie UI WG (fka Intentional
Events WG) is [28]http://www.w3.org/2011/11/indie-ui-charter
... off-list, one Member of the WG raised a concern about some other
Member not being able to participate in the Gamepad and PointerLock
specs if they are added to Web Events' charter. As such, those two
APIs may be added to some other "friendly" WG or used as the basis
of a new WG.
[27] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/2011/Overview.html
[28] http://www.w3.org/2011/11/indie-ui-charter
DS: more concretely, they could be added to WebApps WG
… or put in a new WG like a "Game" WG
… then other specs could be added to that WG
… f.ex. MIDI
AB: Doug, do you have any status or other info you can share?
DS: I don't have any new info to share
… I can inquire and report back
… I think the charters are mostly ready
… If we don't add Gamepad and PointerLock, we don't need to
re-charter
… because the Intentional Events spec is already in our charter
SM: during our f2f meeting I mentioned another model
DS: I think that is similar to what Msft has done
… would you please create a strawman about that?
SM: yes, I can do that
AB: anything else on this topic?
AoB
AB: any other business for today?
SM: I got access to the stream api from Khronos group
… I don't think we need to worry about it
… it is way too complicated
Suman: they have several proposals
… agree we don't have to look at it
AB: I will determine next Monday if we will have a call on Nov 29
... Meeting Adjourned!
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: barstow start a 10-day CfC to publish CR of Touch
Events v1 spec [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2011/11/22-webevents-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 22 November 2011 17:53:43 UTC