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Draft minutes: 10 May 2011 call

From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 12:09:25 -0400
Message-ID: <4DC96335.80102@nokia.com>
To: "public-webevents@w3.org" <public-webevents@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the May 10 voice conference are available at the 
following and copied below:


WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send 
them to the public-webevents mail list before May 24 (the next voice 
conference); otherwise these minutes will be considered Approved as is.

-Art Barstow


       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     Web Events WG Voice Conference

10 May 2011


       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0092.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc


           Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Doug_Schepers, Josh_Soref,
           Olli_Pettay, Cathy_Chan




      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Tweak Agenda
          2. [6]Short Announcements
          3. [7]Object Identity
          4. [8]preventDefault Research;
          5. [9]Issue-3 - Click event target after DOM mutation during
          6. [10]Issue-6 - Touch targets in frames
          7. [11]Issue-8 - initTouchEvent function
          8. [12]High-level Intentional Event Spec
          9. [13]AoB
      * [14]Summary of Action Items

    <scribe>  ScribeNick: ArtB

    <scribe>  Scribe: Art

    Date: 10 May 2011

    <smaug>  Oops, I had muted my speaker, not microphone

Tweak Agenda

    AB: I posted the draft agenda on May 6 (
    0092.html ). Any change requests?

      [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0092.html

    [ None ]

Short Announcements

    AB: FPWD published May 5; congratulations to the Editors and WG (
    [16]http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-touch-events-20110505/ ). Any other
    short annoucements?
    ... FYI, Josh is no longer employed by Nokia

      [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-touch-events-20110505/

Object Identity

    AB: on April 26, Matt Brubeck sent an e-mail re Object Identity (
    0068.html ). The only person that responded was Olli.
    ... what do others think; what do we do about Object Identity; is
    there some spec'ing that needs to be done?

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0068.html

    MB: I don't have a strong opinion
    ... but web devs have talked about it
    ... I think we should at least get an opinion
    ... We may not have to specify anything here
    ... but OTOH, if there is consensus to spec something then we should

    OP: I wonder why WebKit might be changing their behavior
    ... would like to understand that
    ... QuirksMode indicated WebKit will change

    MB: WebKit is a bit diff than my examples

    OP: we need to discuss this with someone who is implementing this in
    ... need to know if they are reusing their Touch objects

    MB: agree we need more feedback from implementors
    ... until then, I think the spec should remain silent

    OP: perhaps someone from Nokia can find out

    <scribe>  ACTION: barstow follow up with Laszlo re Object Identity
    implementation in WebKit [recorded in

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-46 - Follow up with Laszlo re Object
    Identity implementation in WebKit [on Arthur Barstow - due

    ISSUE: Should the spec be silent or prescriptive re Object Identity

    <trackbot>  Created ISSUE-16 - Should the spec be silent or
    prescriptive re Object Identity ; please complete additional details
    at [19]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/16/edit .

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/16/edit

preventDefault Research;

    AB: on April 26 Matt sent an e-mail regarding some research he did
    on preventDefault (
    0069.html ). Andrew Grieve and Matt had some additional responses.
    ... is there some additional spec'ing that needs to be done?

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0069.html

    MB: Andrew suggested a simple fix
    ... I don' think there were any objections to that
    ... Another open issue if spec should say something about scrolling
    ... It would be useful for implementors
    ... I'll make a proposal about preventing scrolling
    ... Probably in terms of May or Should rather than Must requirements

    <scribe>  ACTION: brubeck submit a proposal for re scrolling and the
    preventDefault research thread [recorded in

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-47 - Submit a proposal for re scrolling
    and the preventDefault research thread [on Matt Brubeck - due

Issue-3 - Click event target after DOM mutation during touchstart

    AB: Issue-3 ( [22]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/3 )
    was opened weeks ago. There was some recent follow-up by Sangwhan
    and Andrew (
    0081.html ). Doug has related Action-23 (
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/23 ).
    ... who can take the lead here and make a proposal?

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/3
      [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0081.html
      [24] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/23

    <shepazu>  Action-23?

    <trackbot>  ACTION-23 -- Doug Schepers to follow-up on Issue-3 -- due
    2011-03-29 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>  [25]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/23

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/23

    DS: I don't see a way around this issue
    ... I have some behavior defined for Activiate in the DOM 3 Events
    ... We could borrow some of that
    ... But if someone wants to help, that's fine

    MB: our initial Gecko implementation behaves the same way as Android
    and iPhone

    AB: that's quite a bit of synergy
    ... are there any volunteers to help here?
    ... Doug, we'll wait for your input here

    DS: I can propose something by the end of today
    ... We need to decide if this is a Should or a Must

    MB: we already addressed touchstart and default actions and click
    ... this is about what to do if DOM changes

    DS: I need to take a look at this

    AB: ok, so the status of Issue-3 is we will wait for Doug to
    complete action-23
    ... If anyone wants to help, please do so

    MB: the reason Gecko behaves as it does is because we wait for touch
    to end before simulate up/down events
    ... all of those events occur in the DOM after the touch sequence

Issue-6 - Touch targets in frames

    AB: Issue-6 was raised by Andrew last February (
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/6 ). Doug has
    related Action-24 (
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/24 ). The last
    discussion was February 22 (
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2011/02/22-webevents-minutes.html#item08 ).

      [26] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/6
      [27] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/24
      [28] http://www.w3.org/2011/02/22-webevents-minutes.html#item08

    DS: I need to send an e-mail about this

    AB: is this a relatively straight fwd proposal?

    DS: would like to know what WebKit and Gecko do
    ... need to consider security here

    MB: need to be careful here
    ... don't want any data leaking

    DS: also could observe a pattern of how the user is moving on the
    larger outside page
    ... and where the iframe is

    MB: if you can trick the user in a specific way, can get some data
    on the user

    AB: so Doug, you are OK with the way iOS and Android handle this?

    DS: basically, yes

    AB: so how do we close this?

    DS: just need an Editor to add the text

    MB: I can do that

    AB: that would be great Matt

    <scribe>  ACTION: brubeck propose text to address Issue-6 (routing to
    the child iframe) [recorded in

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-48 - Propose text to address Issue-6
    (routing to the child iframe) [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-05-17].

Issue-8 - initTouchEvent function

    AB: Issue-8 ( [30]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/8 )
    was created in March. Olli has related Action-34 (
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/34 ) and Doug has
    related Action-36 (
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/36 ). The last
    time we discussed this was during the April 12 call (
    att-0039/WebEvents-min-12-Apr-2011.html#issue-8 ).
    ... this method is already defined in the spec. What else needs to
    be specified?

      [30] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/8
      [31] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/34
      [32] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/36
      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/att-0039/WebEvents-min-12-Apr-2011.html#issue-8

    MB: I committed a proposal
    ... there is one open sub-issue
    ... it is noted in the spec
    ... re the arguments of this method
    ... it takes page x and 'y' and client x and 'y'
    ... Think we can close Issue-8
    ... and open a new issue

    AB: any objections to that?

    <scribe>  ACTION: barstow move issue-8 to the closed state [recorded
    in [34]http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-49 - Move issue-8 to the closed state [on
    Arthur Barstow - due 2011-05-17].

    ISSUE: page x and 'y' paramters to create touch

    <trackbot>  Created ISSUE-17 - Page x and 'y' parameters to create
    touch ; please complete additional details at
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/17/edit .

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/17/edit

    MB: I started a thread on this issue


      [36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0078.html

    MB: we should take issue-17 to the list

    OP: Gecko and Webkit aren't aligned here

    <smaug>  Currently Gecko doesn't compute clientX/Y values
    automatically from pageX/Y, like webkit does

    [ Scribe missed some details exchanged between Olli and Matt ...]

    <mbrubeck>  The spec (which is based on what Olli implemented in
    Gecko) is written to allow backward compatibility with
    WebKit/Safari, while also allowing consistency with mouse events.

    <mbrubeck>  If we keep the API in the spec, we should specify that if
    pageX/Y are null, then they will be computed based on clientX/Y, and

    AB: thanks Olli and Matt for embellishing the minutes!

    <mbrubeck>  Or we could simplify the spec and make it work like mouse
    events (breaking compatibility with content that uses the current
    WebKit API).

    MB: I will make a proposal on the list

    <scribe>  ACTION: brubeck make a proposal to address Issue-17
    [recorded in

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-50 - Make a proposal to address Issue-17
    [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-05-17].

High-level Intentional Event Spec

    AB: I am interested in expectations, plans and such

    DS: I have some information
    ... Apple made a proposal to Web Apps WG
    ... for the Protocols and Formats WG
    ... to add some a11y features to D3E
    ... Decided a joint deliverable between Web Events and WAI WG would
    be a good way to move fwd

    AB: is James' earlier proposal public?

    <shepazu>  James Craig is working on the "Independence for User
    Interface" (IndieUI) proposal

    AB: James' proposal:
    ... is P&F WG working on this IndieUI spec?

      [38] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html

    DS: no, I don't think so yet; but expect it or something like it
    will be
    ... not sure about its priority, especially with ARIA

    AB: so is the IndieUI going to be the Intentional Events spec we are
    chartered to do?

    DS: yes, that is my expectation
    ... in cooperation with the P&F WG
    ... I will notify Web Events WG when there is something to review

    AB: getting early access to a draft, would be very useful

    DS: I will convey that to him

    <shepazu>  Recommended these resources: [$1\47]
    [39]http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html [$1\47]
    [40]http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/spec-conventions.html [$1\47]

      [39] http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html
      [40] http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/spec-conventions.html
      [41] http://dev.w3.org/2008/dev-ind-testing/extracting-test-assertions-pub.html

    AB: ok; thanks

    DS: If James follows these conventions, the spec should be similar
    in format to what we are already doing
    ... Need a way for author to map from low-level to high-level
    intentional events
    ... I can get the related paper from the IETF

    AB: I think you mean GISpL

      [42] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-echtler-gispl-specification-00

    DS: may need a separate event listener
    ... needs some more thinking
    ... event types and a range of values
    ... register for some event with a set of params
    ... and the listener would get some set of values for the registered
    ... I think I should send an e-mail about this
    ... there could be a more elegant solution


    AB: no call next on May 17
    ... next call will be May 24
    ... any other topics for today?
    ... meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: barstow follow up with Laszlo re Object Identity
    implementation in WebKit [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: barstow move issue-8 to the closed state [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: brubeck make a proposal to address Issue-17 [recorded
    in [45]http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: brubeck propose text to address Issue-6 (routing to
    the child iframe) [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: brubeck submit a proposal for re scrolling and the
    preventDefault research thread [recorded in

    [End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 10 May 2011 16:09:56 UTC

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