Re: Request-Off-The-Record Mode header

ha, thanks Mike. Makes sense now. Thanks all.

On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 8:29 AM Mike West <mkwst@google.com> wrote:

> On Mon 12. Jun 2023 at 15:22 Caleb Queern <cqueern@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Shivan,
>>
>> I think one big difference between Off-The-Record and Clear-Site-Data is
>>> that Off-The-Record is preventative, while Clear-Site-Data is sent after
>>> the fact
>>>
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken Clear-Site-Data can be sent "along the way" from the
>> first navigation so that user agents don't store anything in storage or
>> record the site visit in history etc.  as well.
>>
>
> A small not: Clear-Site-Data does not offer developers the ability to
> clear browser history. It offers the ability to clear already web-visible
> storage, as well as cache.
>
> My concern is that these seem to have overlapping functionality and after
>> more than a decade of adding new security headers for developers to think
>> about, there's only so much we can reasonably expect them to consider (and
>> leading to compensatory efforts like Mike's Baseline Header
>> https://github.com/mikewest/baseline-header ).
>>
>> Our options might be:
>> a) agree on Off-The-Record header, have browsers implement it, educate
>> devs on OTR usage
>> b) educate devs on CSD usage
>>
>> I'll defer to the broader group of course.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 1:55 AM Shivan Kaul Sahib <
>> shivankaulsahib@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Caleb,
>>>
>>> On Thu, 8 Jun 2023 at 14:58, Caleb Queern <cqueern@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This feels very similar to what <ahem> some have said about the
>>>> Clear-Site-Data header both in its utility and risks.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think one big difference between Off-The-Record and Clear-Site-Data is
>>> that Off-The-Record is preventative, while Clear-Site-Data is sent after
>>> the fact. Also, in the case of Clear-Site-Data, the website specifies
>>> what to clear, while with Off-The-Record the website leaves it up to the
>>> user agent.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 4:52 PM David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This sounds very useful for the domestic violence resources use case,
>>>>> but at the same time I could imagine malware websites abusing it to erase
>>>>> traces of how a machine got infected. Would it be possible to get user
>>>>> consent per origin for this?
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 2:42 PM Eric Lawrence <
>>>>> Eric.Lawrence@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This generally seems useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can foresee some user confusion if a user encountered the
>>>>>> interstitial page when visiting the target site in InPrivate/Incognito
>>>>>> mode, but I also wouldn’t want to skip the interstitial page in those
>>>>>> privacy modes (because it could be abused as an oracle that would reveal to
>>>>>> the site whether a visitor is using a Private Mode already).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Chromium-based browsers, browser extensions are disabled by
>>>>>> default while in Private Mode. It does not look like you propose to disable
>>>>>> extensions from interacting with “Off-the-record” sites?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* Shivan Kaul Sahib <shivankaulsahib@gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 8, 2023 2:14 PM
>>>>>> *To:* public-webappsec@w3.org; HTTP Working Group <
>>>>>> ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Request-Off-The-Record Mode header
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't often get email from shivankaulsahib@gmail.com. Learn why
>>>>>> this is important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi folks, this is a head's up and early request for feedback:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brave is shipping support for an HTTP response header sent by a
>>>>>> website that wants the client to treat the website as "off-the-record" i.e.
>>>>>> not store anything in storage, not record the site visit in history etc.
>>>>>> Kind of like incognito/private browsing mode but site-initiated and only
>>>>>> for a specific website. The header is simple: it would look like
>>>>>> `Request-OTR: 1`. Some details here:
>>>>>> https://brave.com/privacy-updates/26-request-off-the-record/#request-otr-header. Currently
>>>>>> we bootstrap for websites that have expressed interest in this (mainly
>>>>>> websites that have help resources for domestic violence victims, which was
>>>>>> the driving use-case) by preloading a list of websites into the browser,
>>>>>> but it would be nice to standardize the header. We're considering doing the
>>>>>> work in the HTTP WG at IETF: it's envisioned to be a simple header.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see that this idea was previously discussed in W3C WebAppSec:
>>>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2015Sep/0016.html,
>>>>>> and there was a draft Mozilla spec:
>>>>>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Automatic_Private_Browsing_Upgrades,
>>>>>> though as a CSP directive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy to hear what people think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
> -mike
>