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Notes from an HSTS Meetup (Sep. 2016)

From: Lucas Garron <lgarron@google.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 01:03:32 +0000
Message-ID: <CAKj7jtvJYUvhcDbCqmOb9_3qf4iymjW6i5cEhx+UAw=wpL-vow@mail.gmail.com>
To: websec@ietf.org, "public-webappsec@w3.org" <public-webappsec@w3.org>
Hi all,

Last September I organized HSTS meetup, and I'd like to share public notes
of what we discussed: bit.ly/hsts-meetup-notes
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d21wtTCQ-a6vN7yDwyhLkuBpgmLoJCKMI7aRrXNBIbI/edit#>

Most major browsers had at least one participant, and since I currently
maintain the Chromium HSTS preload list <https://hstspreload.org/>, I set
roughly half the agenda to discuss the HSTS preload list.

Some highlights:

   - We collectively documented the HSTS preload list processes
   <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d21wtTCQ-a6vN7yDwyhLkuBpgmLoJCKMI7aRrXNBIbI/edit#heading=h.gpm9zj53wbk5>
   for Mozilla, Microsoft, Chrome, Opera, and Safari in one place for the
   first time. I also also made slides documenting the Chromium preload
   list submission process.
   <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1TdSPLBqkeSGZ3mFO6bSpHaRKKwPVDzU_xVc7q5vdHrY/edit#slide=id.p>
   - The HSTS preload list has roughly two major issues: stale/removed
   entries, and potentially very large growth in the near future. To help
   address this, most browsers could support out-of-band updates
   <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d21wtTCQ-a6vN7yDwyhLkuBpgmLoJCKMI7aRrXNBIbI/edit#bookmark=id.5gjn9r3a8p80>
    if it becomes necessary. (In fact, it seems Firefox just implemented
   this <https://twitter.com/rlbarnes/status/819640097972822020>.)
   - Firefox has implemented HSTS priming
   <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d21wtTCQ-a6vN7yDwyhLkuBpgmLoJCKMI7aRrXNBIbI/edit#heading=h.vpdezmng8pxs>,
   which addresses the fact that HSTS on its own does not prevent mixed
   content. Chrome is interested in implementing this, too. :-)
   - Related topics: history of HSTS, HSTS history leaks and supercookies,
   how to handle demand for content filtering when HTTPS is common, how to get
   to a place where the web can be HTTPS by default, how to switch entire TLDs
   to HTTPS, how to prevent developers from accidentally preloading.

(One planned topic that we didn't end up discussing much at the meetup was
standardizing the `preload` directive used by hstspreload.org)

Based on the discussions, I am also planning to make several changes to
https://hstspreload.org in the near future:

   - Automatically handle removal requests and prune stale entries
   <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=608599> using daily
   scans <https://github.com/chromium/hstspreload.org/issues/35>.
   - Once we're confident about pruning process keeps the list up-to-date,
   get all browsers to draw from the same source of truth
   <https://github.com/chromium/hstspreload.org/issues/76> instead of
   filtering each other's lists. (This can reduce delays for new/removed
   entries by several months.)
   - Possibly raise the submission requirements
   <https://hstspreload.org/#submission-requirements> to a minimum max-age
   of 1 year
   <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d21wtTCQ-a6vN7yDwyhLkuBpgmLoJCKMI7aRrXNBIbI/edit#bookmark=id.s9cg5xbp1r1m>
   .

martijnc@ has also been contributing changes
<https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=595493> to Chromium
that will make my life as maintainer easier. :-)

Apologies for the delay if anyone was waiting on this. I had a lot of
non-HSTS work to do last quarter, but I've started work on hstspreload.org
for the bullet points above, and plan to dedicate a significant amount to
this in early 2017.

Many thanks for all the meetup participants for a productive day with
insights about everyone's concerns and priorities. :-)

Cheers,
»Lucas

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:43 PM Emily Stark <estark@google.com> wrote:

> Adding Lucas, who organized the meetup. I know he's planning to share
> notes eventually though I don't know if they're ready for consumption
> yet.
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 4:08 AM, John Wilander <wilander@apple.com> wrote:
> > Hi WebAppSec!
> >
> > I know there was an HSTS meetup in San Francisco on 9/30, organized by
> > Google. Challenges with HSTS preload was one of the topics (see for
> instance
> > requests for removal). Could we get summary + any action points sent
> here?
> > Or maybe there’s already a thread on some other mailing list? Thanks!
> >
> > I know HSTS doesn’t fall under our working group but it relates with UIR
> and
> > we should follow what happens.
> >
> >    Regards, John
>
Received on Sunday, 22 January 2017 17:56:24 UTC

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