W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webappsec@w3.org > January 2015

Re: Proposal: A pinning mechanism for CSP?

From: Brad Hill <hillbrad@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 06:26:46 +0000
Message-ID: <CAEeYn8j=Xos1snKDxN1GtwQoV35v5AUN3WeKbygRzE-Htn_ffQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Yan Zhu <yzhu@yahoo-inc.com>, Mike West <mkwst@google.com>
Cc: Jim Manico <jim.manico@owasp.org>, Frederik Braun <fbraun@mozilla.com>, "public-webappsec@w3.org" <public-webappsec@w3.org>, yan zhu <yan@mit.edu>, Chris Palmer <palmer@google.com>, Ryan Sleevi <sleevi@google.com>, Dan Veditz <dveditz@mozilla.com>
I think that's a very interesting feature proposal.  I'm not sure it
belongs in CSP, vs an extension to the HPKP grammar or a standalone
header?  I can see it if I squint, but for reasons I've suggested, I think
there are lots of sharp edges for pinning when applied to everything else
CSP does.

On Sun Jan 25 2015 at 7:57:01 PM Yan Zhu <yzhu@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:

> The use case I had for non-overrideable pinning only makes sense if there
> is a future CSP directive that says something like, "Do not load any
> resources on this page except from a package signed by this key." Suppose
> https://securedrop.my-news-site.com (a site where users can go to submit
> encrypted messages to journalists) looks like this:
>
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <link rel="package" href="/securedrop-app.pack" scope="/"
> type="application/package">
> </head>
> ...
> </html>
>
> where 'securedrop-app.pack' is of the format defined in
> https://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/ and includes a digital
> signature. The site operator delivers a CSP header that says, "do not load
> any resources except from a package signed by [some signing key]" which is
> pinned for 3 months.
>
> With this particular pinned header, the only bricking risk is if the site
> loses control of its package signing key; in the analogous case for
> installable apps/extensions, they're are out of luck too.
>
> The threat model here is that most users should be safe even if the server
> delivering code updates is compromised.
>
> I realize this is a stretch since that threat scenario was never in scope
> for CSP, but I just wanted to throw it out there since it's something that
> multiple projects seem interested in.
>
> Thanks,
> Yan
>
> On Friday, January 23, 2015 1:57 PM, Brad Hill <hillbrad@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> There is a lot of tension here between preventing pin-suicide (as
> cryptocat has already done with key pinning) and a somewhat dubious threat
> model - attacker can inject arbitrary headers and code, but we think this
> will somehow save users.
>
>
> I'd like to see more exploration of the latter threat model to be
> convinced it makes sense, and also to understand what kind of measures
> would be needed to mitigate deployment risk.
>
> I too, started with a policy like you suggest for an experiment I'm
> working on, then I needed ReCAPTCHA, then I found there were bugs in
> Chrome's policy enforcement on iOS, and I needed to update my policies to
> make things work.  I think that CSP in deployment for real apps tends to be
> either static and report-only or very loose, or meaningfully strict to
> offer serious preventative control and highly evolving.
>
> Chrome apps have a manifested policy that looks like a pin, but you can
> update it by updating the app. How do you update the CSP pin for a webapp?
>
> On Fri Jan 23 2015 at 12:30:44 PM Yan Zhu <yzhu@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
>
> On Friday, January 23, 2015 11:23 AM, Mike West <mkwst@google.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 7:29 PM, Brad Hill <hillbrad@gmail.com>
> wrote:>>>The pinning model in the proposal uses the existing
> >>>> combination logic for multiple headers: resources simply
> >>>> need to pass all the policies applied to a protected resource.
> >>>> I think overriding the pinned policy completely would undermine
> >>>> its impact to some extent; I'd prefer to avoid doing that unless
> >>>> there's a good reason to.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >>>I don't know about that.  I like the idea of "here's a backup policy in
> case things go wrong and >>we forget to send one".  For example, if an
> application ends up returning an error page before the >>logic that applies
> the policy was reached.>
> >
> >> I hadn't thought about the problem this way; it's a compelling
> alternative, mostly because it
> >
> >> reduces the deployment risk to (practically) nil.>
> >
> >> The overall concept, then, would be "Every page on my host(s) MUST have
> a Content Security
> >> Policy.", which is similar conceptually to HSTS's promise that every
> page on a host will be
> >> delivered over HTTPS. I think it's worth exploring (sorry, Jim; I
> shouldn't have dismissed the
> >> idea so quickly).>
> >
> >> I don't want to entirely give up the stricter "Every page on my host(s)
> MUST have a CSP that's at > least this strict." variant. I think Yan had
> some use cases that would benefit from that sort of
> >> promise. Perhaps we can do both with something horrible like a
> `no-override` directive?
> >
> >My main use case was web apps that are infrequently updated and need to
> make especially strong security guarantees to users (like SecureDrop,
> CryptoCat, Google/Yahoo's End to End project, etc.). These tend to be
> implemented as browser extensions or installable packaged apps, partly due
> to lack of something like CSP pinning [1].
> >
> >
> >For instance, https://cryptomail.example.com (an encrypted webmail
> service) might deliver the following non-overrideable CSP pin header:
> >
> >"Content-Security-Policy-Pin: default-src 'none'; script-src 'self';
> style-src 'self'; max-age=31536000; includeSubDomains"
> >
> >because the developers want to ensure that if a cryptomail server is
> temporarily compromised, the attacker will not be able to start loading
> inline scripts or malicious third-party content by suddenly changing the
> headers. (This doesn't stop them from loading malicious first-party
> scripts, but I'm hoping to get code signing into SRI or the TAG's proposed
> packaging format to deal with that.)
> >
> >The no-override directive doesn't sound like such a bad option to me. :)
> >
> >
> >[1] Chrome extensions enforce a strict CSP policy by default and lets
> developers "pin" policies in the extension manifest file:
> https://developer.chrome.com/extensions/contentSecurityPolicy.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Also, if we allow overrides at all, I'd suggest that `<meta>`-delivered
> policies shouldn't
> >> override pinned policies. That seems like a bad idea.
> >
> >Agree!
> >
>
Received on Monday, 26 January 2015 06:27:46 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Monday, 23 October 2017 14:54:09 UTC