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Re: [referrer] HTTPS->HTTP

From: Mike West <mkwst@google.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 12:15:29 +0200
Message-ID: <CAKXHy=exv26NYv3TCaEUu2KB++CteYX9gBQ=O3_Sz4+JW1h=ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: Jochen Eisinger <eisinger@google.com>, Brian Smith <brian@briansmith.org>, WebAppSec WG <public-webappsec@w3.org>
Don't services get _more_ referrers when they move to HTTPS? If I was a
newspaper, curious about where my users were coming from, I'd totally want
to be an HTTPS site; otherwise I'd lose out on referrer information from
the default none-when-downgrade behavior.

-mike

--
Mike West <mkwst@google.com>
Google+: https://mkw.st/+, Twitter: @mikewest, Cell: +49 162 10 255 91

Google Germany GmbH, Dienerstrasse 12, 80331 München, Germany
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Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hamburg
Geschäftsführer: Graham Law, Christine Elizabeth Flores
(Sorry; I'm legally required to add this exciting detail to emails. Bleh.)

On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

> When sites migrate to HTTPS, they lose referers to HTTP third-party
> services; I think that’s the friction that Jochen was trying to avoid
> (happy to be corrected).
>
> ‘always’ avoids that friction, but the flip side of the coin is that it
> makes it easier for third-party services to remain HTTP-only.
>
>
>
> > On 24 Oct 2014, at 9:08 pm, Mike West <mkwst@google.com> wrote:
> >
> > How does that follow, Mark?
> >
> > -mike
> >
> > --
> > Mike West <mkwst@google.com>
> > Google+: https://mkw.st/+, Twitter: @mikewest, Cell: +49 162 10 255 91
> >
> > Google Germany GmbH, Dienerstrasse 12, 80331 München, Germany
> > Registergericht und -nummer: Hamburg, HRB 86891
> > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hamburg
> > Geschäftsführer: Graham Law, Christine Elizabeth Flores
> > (Sorry; I'm legally required to add this exciting detail to emails.
> Bleh.)
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
> > Doesn’t it encourage third-party services to be lazy and stay on
> cleartext HTTP?
> >
> >
> > > On 24 Oct 2014, at 9:05 pm, Jochen Eisinger <eisinger@google.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Google uses the "origin" policy on the search result page.
> > >
> > > I agree that "always" is a two edged sword. From my point of view, the
> current default referrer behavior makes sense in a world where everybody is
> happy with HTTP, and HTTPS means something like "banking".
> > >
> > > Today, I think we'd rather have everybody on HTTPS, and I see the
> "always" policy as a way to make it easier for web sites to migrate to
> HTTPS without punishing them.
> > >
> > > best
> > > -jochen
> > >
> > > On Fri Oct 24 2014 at 11:56:41 AM Mike West <mkwst@google.com> wrote:
> > > +Jochen, who hopefully has a few minutes to think about this before he
> disappears into vacationland.
> > >
> > > -mike
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mike West <mkwst@google.com>
> > > Google+: https://mkw.st/+, Twitter: @mikewest, Cell: +49 162 10 255 91
> > >
> > > Google Germany GmbH, Dienerstrasse 12, 80331 München, Germany
> > > Registergericht und -nummer: Hamburg, HRB 86891
> > > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hamburg
> > > Geschäftsführer: Graham Law, Christine Elizabeth Flores
> > > (Sorry; I'm legally required to add this exciting detail to emails.
> Bleh.)
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 9:03 AM, Brian Smith <brian@briansmith.org>
> wrote:
> > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
> wrote:
> > > The bigger issue, however, is whether this is a good idea at all. In
> particular, "unsafe-url" removes this prohibition completely, for an
> *entire* page.
> > >
> > > This is likely to create a situation where those providing third-party
> functionality want/require referers, so they tell HTTPS sites to set
> "unsafe-url" or face a functional (or financial) penalty; now not only the
> intended content but all other fetches from the page will send a referer.
> > >
> > > I understand that there's a delicate balance here; if referers aren't
> sent at all, sites may be reluctant to move to HTTPS (although one might
> just say that the sites they're linking to should move to HTTPS!). The
> question is whether there's a net improvement to Web security.
> > >
> > > Arguably, origin-only and origin-when-cross-origin might get that
> balance right; I question whether unsafe-url and always (which isn't
> well-documented, btw) do.
> > >
> > > Has this been discussed yet?
> > >
> > > Mark, if I understand you correctly, then I very much agree with you.
> See these messages, and others in that thread:
> > >
> > > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2014Jun/0174.html
> > > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2014Jun/0162.html
> > >
> > > See also:
> > >
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/mozilla.dev.privacy/wmPzPCdzIU8/Vrugn8XquL4J
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Brian
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/
>
>
>
>
Received on Friday, 24 October 2014 10:16:17 UTC

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