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Re: Clipboard API: remove dangerous formats from mandatory data types

From: Florian Bösch <pyalot@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 20:08:25 +0200
Message-ID: <CAOK8ODjCwmoVKkuVZMOU7c=BdE96dKNWM3XWwzbr3YP9ztMqJA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Daniel Cheng <dcheng@google.com>
Cc: Wez <wez@google.com>, Hallvord Reiar Michaelsen Steen <hsteen@mozilla.com>, public-webapps <public-webapps@w3.org>
My point is that if you leave no other way out, that is what will happen.

On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Daniel Cheng <dcheng@google.com> wrote:

> That's the case today already, and I haven't seen this happening.
>
> Daniel
>
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 10:48 AM Florian Bösch <pyalot@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm sure you're aware that you can encode any binary blob as UTF-8
>> text/plain. If you don't support application/octet-stream, then that just
>> becomes the "dumping ground".
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Daniel Cheng <dcheng@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No UA supports it today. No UA is likely to support it anytime soon.
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 10:38 AM Florian Bösch <pyalot@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yet you restrict mime-types AND you support application/octet-stream?
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Daniel Cheng <dcheng@google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For reasons I've already mentioned, this isn't going to happen because
>>>>> there is no so-called "dumping ground".
>>>>>
>>>>> No one is going to risk their paste turning into thousands of lines of
>>>>> gibberish because they tried to stuff binary data in text/plain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 8:23 AM Florian Bösch <pyalot@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, what I'm saying is that if you restrict mime types (or don't
>>>>>> explicitly prohibit such restriction), but require
>>>>>> application/octet-stream, that application/octet-stream becomes the
>>>>>> "undesirable mime-type" dumping ground. And that would be bad because that
>>>>>> makes it much harder for applications to deal with content. But if that's
>>>>>> the only way UAs are going to act, then applications will work around that
>>>>>> by using elaborate guessing code based on magic bytes, and perhaps some
>>>>>> application developers will use their own mime-type annotation pretended to
>>>>>> the octet-stream.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you inconvenience people, but don't make it impossible to work
>>>>>> around the inconvenience, then people will work around the inconvenience.
>>>>>> It can't be the intention to encourage them work around it. So you've got
>>>>>> to either not inconvenience them, or make working around impossible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:07 PM, Wez <wez@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Florian, you keep referring to using application/octet-stream -
>>>>>>> that's not a format that all user agents support (although the spec says
>>>>>>> they should ;), nor is there any mention in the spec of what it means to
>>>>>>> place content on the clipboard in that format (given that platform native
>>>>>>> clipboards each have their own content-type annotations).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So it sounds like you're saying we should also remove
>>>>>>> application/octet-stream as a mandatory format?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2015 at 15:55 Florian Bösch <pyalot@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's very simple. Applications need to know what's in the clipboard
>>>>>>>> to know what to do with it. There is also a vast variety of things that
>>>>>>>> could find itself in the clipboard in terms of formats, both formal and
>>>>>>>> informal. Mime types are one of these things that applications would use to
>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If a UA where to restict what mime type you can put into the
>>>>>>>> clipboard, that forces the clipboard user to use application/octet-stream.
>>>>>>>> And in consequence, that forces any such-willing application to forgoe the
>>>>>>>> mime-type information from the OS'es clipboard API and figure out what's in
>>>>>>>> it from the content. In turn this would give rise to another way to markup
>>>>>>>> mime-types in-line with the content. And once you've forced such ad-hoc
>>>>>>>> solutions to emerge for meddling with what people can put in the clipboard,
>>>>>>>> you'll have no standing to put that geenie back in the bottle, again,
>>>>>>>> relevant XKCD quote omitted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Wez <wez@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You've mentioned "resorting to application/octet-stream" several
>>>>>>>>> times in the context of this discussion, where AFAICT the spec actually
>>>>>>>>> only describes using it as a fall-back for cases of file references on the
>>>>>>>>> clipboard for which the user agent is unable to determine the file type.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So IIUC you're suggesting that user agents should implement
>>>>>>>>> "application/octet-stream" (as is also mandated by the spec, albeit without
>>>>>>>>> a clear indication of what it means in this context) by putting the content
>>>>>>>>> on the clipboard as an un-typed file?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again, I'm unclear as to what the alternative is that you're
>>>>>>>>> proposing?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2015 at 15:27 Florian Bösch <pyalot@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Surely you realize that if the specification where to state to
>>>>>>>>>> only "safely" expose data to the clipboard, this can only be interpreted to
>>>>>>>>>> deny any formats but those a UA can interprete and deem well-formed. If
>>>>>>>>>> such a thing where to be done, that would leave any user of the clipboard
>>>>>>>>>> no recourse but to resort to "application/octett-stream" and ignore any
>>>>>>>>>> other metadata as the merry magic header guessing game gets underway. For
>>>>>>>>>> all you'd have achieved was to muddle any meaning of the mime-type and
>>>>>>>>>> forced applications to work around an unenforceable restriction.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Wez <wez@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And, again, I don't see what that has to do with whether the
>>>>>>>>>>> spec mandates that user agents let apps place JPEG, PNG or GIF directly on
>>>>>>>>>>> the local system clipboard. The spec doesn't currently mandate OpenEXR be
>>>>>>>>>>> supported, so it's currently up to individual user agents to decide whether
>>>>>>>>>>> they can support that format safely.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2015 at 14:16 Florian Bösch <pyalot@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Wez <wez@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's obvious value in support for arbitrary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> content-specific formats, but IMO the spec should at least give guidance on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> how to present the capability in a safe way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is exactly the core of my question. If you intend to make
>>>>>>>>>>>> it say, safe to put OpenEXR into the clipboard (as opposed to letting an
>>>>>>>>>>>> app just put any bytes there), the UA has to understand OpenEXR. Since I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't see how the UA can understand every conceivable format in existence
>>>>>>>>>>>> both future and past, I don't see how that should work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
Received on Thursday, 25 June 2015 18:08:54 UTC

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