Draft minutes: 12 November 2013

The Draft minutes from WebApps' November 12 f2f meeting [Agenda] are at 
the following and copied below:

<http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html>

Corrections, comments, etc., are welcome.

Thanks very much to the various scribes.

-AB

[Agenda] <http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2013Meeting>

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     WebApps F2F Meeting @ TPAC 2013

12 Nov 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2013Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_November_12

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Shenzhen, +1.650.397.aaaa, dglazkov, Arnaud_Braud,
           Art_Barstow, Charles_Nevile, Travis_Leithead,
           Adrian_Bateman, Eliot_Graff, Xiaoqian_Wu,
           Gary_Kacmarcik, Adam_Boyet, Ryosuke_Niwa, Jungkee_Song,
           Takayoshi_Kochi, Ted_OConnor, Erika_Doyle_Navara,
           Jonas_Sicking, Alex_Russell, Dimitr_Glazkov(phone)

    Regrets
    Chair
           Art, Chaals

    Scribe
           Art, Travis

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Admin, Agenda Setting
          2. [6]Technical Difficulties...
          3. [7]Web Components
          4. [8]Test Interopt
          5. [9]Server Sent Events
          6. [10]Web Messaging
          7. [11]Web Sockets
          8. [12]Web Workers
          9. [13]Testing
         10. [14]Writing Tests
      * [15]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB

    <scribe> Scribe: Art

Admin, Agenda Setting

    AB: this morning we will talk about Web Components

     Dimitri will join us from Mtn View

     and Dominc from Tokyo

     After the morning break we will talk about Testing and
    Interop

    AB: we will start Web Components @ 09:30

    <dglazkov> trying...

    <Travis> Scribe: Travis

    <scribe> Scribenick: Travis

Technical Difficulties...

    <ArtB> denis, how do we get the Shenzhen conf room to attach to
    this new bridge?

Web Components

    <ArtB>
    [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctD
    ec/0042.html

      [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0042.html

    ArtB: Please take a minute or two to give us a status update

    dglazkov: Things are mostly unchanged.
    ... custom elements have made pretty good progress--kinks
    worked out.
    ... next step is a CR-ready doc.
    ... the basics are there, everything else is additive.
    ... Shadow DOM keeps going on--perhaps this year it can get to
    completion
    ... custom elements may provide something that is simple and
    good.
    ... Shadow DOM has been taking over by ???, who is aligning
    with DOM4
    ... also switching it to ReSpec
    ... I'm focusing on custom elements.

    <ArtB> s/taking over by???/taking over by
    mailto:hayato@google.com/

    ArtB: Switching over to ryosuke

    <ArtB>
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctD
    ec/0418.html -> Ryosuke's email

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0418.html

    Ryosuke: Highlights key points from email.

    dglazkov: Reviewed the email today, and want to address each
    point, time might be short.
    ... sounds like you have the right motivation, but cutting out
    some pieces that we care about to. We want to build something
    that works in both cases: same origin and cross-origin.

    Ryosuke: we think the current design makes cross-origin use
    cases much harder.

    dglazkov: I think there are ways to do it (via Imports)

    <rniwa> Travis: s/Ryosuke/Ryosuke/

    dglazkov: I think you're looking for encapsulation around
    shadow dom
    ... mozilla researchers came up with an elegant solutions for
    +1 buttons with trusted/untrusted code.
    ... was hoping we'd taken everything we wrote down and make
    something good out of it.

    Ryosuke: our concern is with the specs going to last call.

    dglazkov: There is no changes to custom elements--these specs
    are all de-coupled.
    ... I responded to your proposal, and there is one thing I
    don't think we should do
    ... the callback proposal.

    <ArtB>
    [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctD
    ec/0436.html -> Dimitri's reply to Ryosuke

      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0436.html

    Ryosuke: Our concern is more about the HTML Imports;
    document.register, seems fine-no objections.

    dglazkov: This spec needs to cook a lot more.

    Ryosuke: let's chat about html imports

    Jonas: I have the same concern about how this runs script
    ... same concern as apple, that imports run scripts in
    importing docuement. Seems like same mistake with script tags
    ... it's security issue,
    ... but bigger problem is bad comm protocol.
    ... this the impetus for ES6 modules pattern. We should reuse
    some of these ideas in Html imprts.

    dglazkov: You should raise this concern
    ... please raise the concern on the mailing list
    ... there there be dragons.
    ... the polymer folks were starting to work on this, so they'll
    have more expertise.
    ... I can set general outcome expectations
    ... imports in same origin--originally we didn't want to run
    script at all.
    ... at first imports was like template only
    ... then it's changed.
    ... we a providing a good solution to a tricky problem

    Ryosuke: we're open to the idea of accessing global doc in
    imported doc.
    ... for same origin of course.
    ... the imported doc can execute any script by default doesn't
    play with x-origin case.
    ... with same origin component, you could use x-origin
    component with having to completely change the way it behaves.

    dglazkov: I don't have a ready solution. Need to outline how to
    address it.
    ... with imports, you can add other imports (same or x-origin)
    ... we have some ideas.
    ... generally problem with imports...
    ... version management was an issue for bootstrap people.
    ... I could do so much more--provide stylesheets for the
    document via imports.
    ... etc.
    ... I could bring in all the scaffolding...
    ... as long as we provide a solution to these guys [bootstrap]
    then I'll be happy.

    slightlyoff: history context:
    ... imports work today unifies cross-and-same origin imports.
    ... they are the same
    ... just like script include
    ... and it can do what it likes.
    ... this is how the web works.
    ... this is how Alex has a job.
    ... we've thought about how web component system can create a
    security barrier.
    ... layout and script boundaries
    ... basically need what iframes offer.
    ... I think we can solve this orthogonally.
    ... shouldn't block web components.
    ... if we can decompose the essense of iframe separation, we
    likely can integrate a solution

    <slightlyoff> note that I'm not arguing that iframes are the
    answer

    ryosuke: we thought about using seamless iframe for a solution
    ... except that with a lot of them...
    ... there are multiple (20-30 iframes)
    ... not a scalable solution.
    ... with separate solutions for same origin and cross-origin
    ... this is bad, we want one solution for both

    hober: to echo jonas
    ... we are learning lessons doing modules
    ... (from modules)

    slightlyoff: I support the idea/goal
    ... yes, iframes aren't scalable
    ... mutual auth wrt global access seems reasonable
    ... we don't have ES6 modules yet.
    ... so it seems premature to design a system before this.
    ... I support the goals, etc., but we should revisit after we
    have ES6 modules

    jonas: html imports are only in one browser

    slightlyoff: seems like an alignment with modules, so we should
    work on the one before the other.

    hober: no reason to gate one on the other, they both should
    proceed together.

    slightlyoff: I would want them ordered.

    ryusuke: we would like ES6 module + imports to be consistent
    with each other.
    ... I don't think we need to fully wait for one to wait on the
    other.

    slightlyoff: Yep. Agree
    ... TC39 process produces a completely integrated spec draft,
    after which it takes a little while to get to "rec"

    <hober> expanding on that: as we work on both, we find and fix
    incompatibilities. no one is proposing that the platform should
    have incompatibles mechanism

    slightlyoff: something closer to CR may be approximately early
    next year.
    ... I don't want to get too far ahead of this.
    ... we should consider imports with modules together.
    ... let's avoid crazy vortexes.

    dglazkov: +1 on imports + module consistency

    hober: violent agreement.

    ryosuke: our big concern was if html imports went forward
    today, we have big concerns with x-origin use cases.
    ... if things slow down, then we can make sure this is done
    right.

    dglazkov: We need to figure out what those x-origin issues are,
    merge them, and move forward.
    ... ryosuke: please drive this!

    jonas: I think module discussion and x-origin are unrelated

    <slightlyoff> so the other analogs are workers

    <slightlyoff> and we don't have workers that have renderers

    jonas: want to figure out the x-origin story. Seems hard.
    ... whatever we create may seem a lot like iframes, or use a
    lot of the same primitives

    <slightlyoff> so if we had a RenderWorker that had the ability
    to have some sort of DOM view to it, that'd be workable, but
    again, we don't have that infrastructure

    jonas: dosen't seem like a blocker (to me).

    dglazkov: Want to write down this proposal.
    ... sync with web app sec.
    ... should start looking at x-origin use cases.

    ryosuke: new topic (slighty)--templates
    ... chatted with rafael, etc.
    ... want to do mustache syntax in templates.

    dglazkov: Seems just outside my scope.... may need to work with
    rafael.

    hober: You're comfortable addressing mustache syntax in
    templates?

    dglazkov: Yes, YES, YES!!!
    ... very comfortable.
    ... I suspect that we'll hear that there isn't one way to do
    this
    ... (it'll be hard to land on "the right one")

    hober: not married to the double {{

    ryosuki: that's all

    Chaals: no further questions..

    ?

    dglazkov: Keep up the good work

    <rniwa> dglazkov: thanks!

    Travis: Microsoft hasn't looked in depth at this yet.

    <aboyet> scribenick: aboyet

    <ArtB> Scribe+ Adam

Test Interopt

    artb: wanted to go through specs and what it's going to take to
    get to next steps
    ... first one IndexDB

     last college about 6 months ago, Alex agreed test facilitor
    for that spec

     have ~7 requests for IDB and not seemed to be reviewed yet,
    anybody give status of this?

    adrianba: believe the work alex has been doing is moved away
    from IDB, we'd be happy with help on it

    <ArtB> ACTION: barstow find another Test Facilitator for IDB
    spec [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-704 - Find another test facilitator
    for idb spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-19].

    artb: will record action to find test person

    . can anybody here to volunteer to help with the IDB testing
    effort ?

     curious what Mozilla's level of interest is for this

     need to review PRs for IDB as well

    <ArtB>
    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuit
    e/2013Oct/0013.html -> IDB Pull Requests for tests

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuite/2013Oct/0013.html

     4 diff pull request during test web forward paris event

    . first step for interop is to try to agree on the set of
    tests, until we get review then we don't have a basis

     really pleading to get people to step for review

    james: think there are some overlap in tests from microsoft
    tests and opera tests

    . other submissions are smaller, so not as much as it looks
    like there

    artb: thanks for clarification . we need somebody as test
    facilitator for IDB, won't be able to move forward in interop
    until tests are reviews

     anything else (to the crowd)

Server Sent Events

    artb: not too far off from having 2 impls passing the tests,
    tina has done some good works in analyzing the failures

     so there are 5 test failures preventing from going to
    recommendation. from chrome and firefox

    james: it looks like there are some common failures  maybe it
    could be a change to the spec then to fix both of them but
    depends if failing for same reason so some sluething needs to
    occur, OK scratch all of that

     it's an interaction with a second spec

    chaals: maybe small enough bugs or known bug from before

     just need to look in to the bugs an tina could provide more

    <ArtB> ACTION: talk to Tina about how to make progress on SSE
    interop [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Error finding 'talk'. You can review and register
    nicknames at <[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users%3E.

    artb: what about the timeout one failing is actually a test
    case issue instead  will talk to tina about it

    james: have a feeling these were opera test originally  zzzz
    is around here could ask him

    artb: anything else on event source?

Web Messaging

    artb: have alex as test facilitator , adrian is alex able to
    help with this one ?

    adrian: talked to chris, his opinion is we have a good enough
    set of test for web messaging an there is interop here.

     while still some failures looks like there might be some need
    investigation

     propose give me action to talk to chris

    <ArtB> ACTION: bateman followup with KrisK re WebMessaging test
    results [23]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebMessaging
    [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action03]

      [23] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebMessaging

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-705 - Followup with krisk re
    webmessaging test results
    [25]http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/webmessaging on
    Adrian Bateman - due 2013-11-19].

      [25] http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/webmessaging

    artb: anymore ?
    ... ok next up

Web Sockets

    artb: Kris is test faciliator i went ahead and ran these, some
    timeouts towards the end of the tests maybe a problem with the
    tests themselves

    james: yeah, that looks wrong, the web sockets test have
    historically had issues there

     suggest re-running tests to improve things

    adrianba: may have some issues with network configs etc. proxy
    server

     conclusion we had they were until there were changes to
    people impls there were issues that still needed to be
    addressed

     still a question about how importatn are those test in grand
    scheme

    artb: what is reasonable next step?

     does it make sense to have Kris eval what is there and make a
    recommendation?

    adrainba: don't think they are bogus, the opera tests added
    added additional coverage

     one option would be to analyze the current coverage of the
    tests and what the failures are a resulting from

    james: think those results are misleading, just ran the tests
    on gecko and we are def. getting some passes where those
    results are getting timeouts

     just for anybody looking at the screen and seeing red

    artb: would you be willing to update the gecko results?

    james: yeah but there is a problem with running the secure
    tests so get timeout for anything that runs the ssl tests but
    can update for non-ssl tests

    artb: leaves somebody to run the chrome ones again, anybody
    from opera

    richt: yeah we could run them again

    <ArtB> ACTION: pieters run the Web Sockets tests and put
    results in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebSockets recorded
    in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action04]

      [26] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebSockets

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-706 - Run the web sockets tests and
    put results in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets on Simon
    Pieters - due 2013-11-19].

      [28] http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets

    <ArtB> ACTION: bateman Run the web sockets tests and put
    results in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets recorded
    in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action05]

      [29] http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-707 - Run the web sockets tests and
    put results in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets on
    Adrian Bateman - due 2013-11-19].

      [31] http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets

    <ArtB> ACTION graham Run the web sockets tests and put results
    in [32]http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets

      [32] http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-708 - Run the web sockets tests and
    put results in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets on James
    Graham - due 2013-11-19].

      [33] http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets

    artb: anybody willing to run chrome tests?

    <ArtB> ACTION Run the web sockets tests and put results in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets for
    Chrome

      [34] http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets

    <trackbot> Error finding 'Run'. You can review and register
    nicknames at <[35]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users%3E.

    richt: i'll talk to simonp about running chromium tests

Web Workers

    artb: have an interop table but not tests have been run it
    seems

     does any implementation implement ?

     if the answer is no then probably not worthwhile to run tests

    james: i know gecko doesn't .. i don't know about others

    alex: not authoritative on this topic .there are issues with
    some stuff but not aware of all of them

    chaals: but does sound like worth running tests suite

     on chrome

    artb: any volunteers to run it ?

    kinuko: I can run them

    <ArtB> ACTION: kinuko run the Workers tests on Chrome and put
    results in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebWorkers recorded
    in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action06]

      [36] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebWorkers

    <trackbot> Error finding 'kinuko'. You can review and register
    nicknames at <[38]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.

      [38] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users%3E.

    adrianba: feeling like ground hogs day on this

     it seems like almost every tpac we have this same
    conversation

    artb: a tpac or two ago I proposed the same thing and got
    bashed for it; , would need somebody to step up to do the
    editorial work

    chaals: anybody think that would be a fun thing to do and use
    the delete key all over the spec

    travis: volunteers to take that up

    <ArtB> ACTION: travis remove the Shared Workers from the
    Workers spec [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-709 - Remove the shared workers from
    the workers spec [on Travis Leithead - due 2013-11-19].

    artb: it still makes sense to run the tests then

     thats all i had for interop and testing

    chaals: gives travis some crazy bottle

    <myakura> <br backat="1:30" />

Testing

    <ArtB> AB: thanks James for leading this session!

    <ArtB> Scribe+ ArtB

    <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB

    JG: this afternoon is mainly about testing

     it's important for a number of reasons

     needed for advancement to REC

     but more importantly, we need tests to get the interop we
    want

     deviations in impls means web devs hate us

     and then they write native apps instead

     Although we have in WebApps some tests, we are having
    problems getting some tests reviewed

     and without review, the tests are not "accpeted"

     So, I'll take about Test Review this afternoon

    [ James shows slide regarding Reasons for Test Review ]

    JG: 1. Check tests are correct per spec

     2. Check tests are written robustly

     3. Check for style issues that will make tests fragile or
    hard to run

     4. Ensure tests are not using server-side script in a
    malicious way

    JG: don't want someone from outside of W3C doing bad stuff like
    %rm -rf /

     I'll start with some tools for test review

     Re test review @ w3c

     Start by cloning web-platform-tests (on GH)

     We have many Pull Requests (PR) now

     The simplest tool is to use GH directly

     and just add a comment to a commit

     GH can show raw diff

     Just click on a line number and then add a comment

     (Here's an example PR:
    [40]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63)

      [40] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63)

     It's hard to know if a comment has been addressed

     Also hard to know if a review is complete or not

     Although GH for code review is ok, it isn't always power
    enough, especially for more complicated reviews

    JR: we have the "Critic" tool or Opera Critic for reviews

     [41]https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/home

      [41] https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/home

     Opera created this because other code review tools were not
    sufficient for some uses

     it can be a bit intimidating at first

     Critic use GH credentials (via OAuth)

     It will try to complete a profile for you

     At a minimum, need to fill in your email to get notifications

     For reviewers, can configure it so that it only shows reviews
    for those reviews of interest

     (unlike GH which has a very coarse notification system)

     Go to Filters and then Add filter to set selections

     < James shows a Critic review >

     Even if you haven't created a filter, you can still submit a
    comment

     One main advantage of Critic is that it says, on a per file
    and per commit basis, the percentage of the review that is
    complete

     it also tracks the review issues that are still open

     One question then is, how do I do the review?

     Can select the commit to review

     If a review has a bunch of commits, can select all of the
    commits and then see all of the proposed changes for the entire
    review

    JG: If issues are raised, they must be closed before a PR can
    be merged/closed

     when submitting a comment, can differentiate "Issues" from
    "Notes"

     It is also possible with Critic to make an Issue span more
    than one line of code

    JG: if someone wants to use Critic with a PR, please let me

     I think it has significant advantages over GH's review
    feature

    RN: is critic feedback sent to GH?

    JG: no, think that would result in lots of e-mail

    RN: it would be nice if GH and Critic could sync

    JG: that's possible but probably not trivial

     think it would result in an annoying amount of emails

     In practice, that hasn't been a problem so far

    JG: those are the two tools for code review

     The next Q is, "what should I be looking for?"

     the TestTWF site has all of the appropriate docs

    <aboyet> [42]http://testthewebforward.org/

      [42] http://testthewebforward.org/

    JG: < Displays Slide for Test Review Checklist >

     Use most specific assert possible

    <rhauck2> [43]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/

      [43] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/

     Make it clear if there is an "Expected Failure"

     Dont use internal timeouts unless they are unavoidable.
    Prefer events

     Use idlharness.js where possible to check WebIDL-derived
    assertions

     External resources must not be used

    <rhauck2> this checklist should be integrated here:
    [44]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html

      [44] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html

     Check files don't have the executable bit set if not
    necessary

     Ensure server-side code does not do anything malicious

    <scribe> ACTION: graham integrate Test Checklist with
    [45]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html
    [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action08]

      [45] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-710 - Integrate test checklist with
    [47]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html on
    James Graham - due 2013-11-19].

      [47] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html

     I've recently submitted a PR to remove PHP

    <rniwa> rhauck2: do you know what's happening there?

    JG: < Code Style slide >

     Avoid trailing whitespace

     Use sufficient whitespace to make sure that tests are
    differentiable

     Prefer spaces to tabs

     Use Unix-style LF instead of Windows-style CR LF

    <rhauck2> rniwa: oh dear - we had a great firewall problem with
    the site the other day in a different room

    RN: can't these checks be automated?

    <rhauck2> rniwa: maybe we're hitting it now here?

    JG: yes, certainly in theory

    <rniwa> rhauck2: i'm on VPN though

    <rhauck2> rniwa: i'm currently vpn'ed in

    <rhauck2> rniwa: me too

    <rhauck2> rniwa: does staging work for you?
    [48]http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/

      [48] http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/

    RN: perhaps Critic could automatically check some of these
    style issues

    JG: yes, it does for some stuff (like trailing WS)

    <rniwa> rhauck2: yup

    <rniwa> rhauck2:
    [49]http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/review-checkl
    ist.html works too :D

      [49] http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/review-checklist.html

    <rniwa> rhauck2: thanks!

    <rhauck2> ArtB: btw, cross logged the AI on the testtwf-website
    issue tracker:
    [50]https://github.com/w3c/testtwf-website/issues/194

      [50] https://github.com/w3c/testtwf-website/issues/194

    <rniwa> rhauck2: is this some sort of a server issue?

    <rhauck2> rniwa: weird. whatup with Apple?

    <rhauck2> rniwa: no idea

    JG: it is possible to run all PRs directly

    <rniwa> rhauck2: oh, it's us :/ nm...

    <rhauck2> rniwa: works for me both on and off vpn

    <rniwa> rhauck2: but i can access
    [51]http://testthewebforward.org

      [51] http://testthewebforward.org/

    JG: f.ex.
    [52]http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/workers/

      [52] http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/workers/

    <rniwa> rhauck2: only [53]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/ is
    what i get 404 on

      [53] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/

    <rhauck2> rniwa: (we fixed the great firewall problem when we
    discovered it the other day - had to do with a godaddy name
    server that was blocked in china)

     this automated mirroring can cause probs f.ex. if a PR
    included bad php

    <rhauck2> rniwa: what about stuff under /docs? like:
    [54]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/testharness-tutorial.html

      [54] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/testharness-tutorial.html

     To get something mirrored to w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/

     if one isn't in the "special grou

    <rniwa> rhauck2: that one worked

    <rniwa> rhauck2: just
    [55]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html and
    [56]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/ I guess

      [55] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html
      [56] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/

    <rhauck2> rniwa: weirdo man

     group, then someone in that group needs to add a
    w3c-test:mirror comment to get the mirror to happen

    <rhauck2> rniwa: just the exact 2 pages we were talking about
    :)

    <rniwa> rhauck2: yeah :(

    JG: so that's all I had re the mechanics of Code Reviews

     there are now 127 Open PRs!

     thus a backlog

    RB: we got about 30 PRs during the TestTWF Shenzhen event on
    Nov 9

    <rniwa> rhauck2: huh, it started working now. so strange.
    thanks for the help

    AB: can we get a list of PRs for WebApps?

    RB: hmmmm

    JG: the answer is yes, but no URL

    <scribe> ACTION: barstow sent James a list of WebApps' test
    dirs in w-p-t [recorded in
    [57]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action09]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-711 - Sent james a list of webapps'
    test dirs in w-p-t [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-19].

    ArtB: we need review help with several PRs

     especially IDB (we have 7 open PRs)

     If anyone can commit to a review, please let me know

    JG: PR 379 is an important one too

     if anyone can look at that, please let me know

     platform

     [58]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/379

      [58] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/379

    JG: re PR379

     need review some of the XHR tests

     also NavigationTiming test need review

    PLH: I already submitted a PR for the NavTiming part of 379

    GH: need review of async tests

     some Opera dnd tests

     script scheduling tests (from O)

     preload tests (expect Simon to review those)

    ArtB: here are some open PRs for WebApps

     File API:
    [59]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/53

      [59] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/53

     IDB: [60]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63

      [60] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63

     IDB: [61]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/634

      [61] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/634

     Shadow DOM:
    [62]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/143

      [62] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/143

     HTML Imports:
    [63]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/178

      [63] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/178

     Shadow DOM:
    [64]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/194

      [64] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/194

     Shadow DOM:
    [65]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/278

      [65] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/278

     File API: github

     File API:
    [66]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/279

      [66] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/279

     File API:
    [67]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/282

      [67] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/282

     File API:
    [68]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/283

      [68] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/283

     File API:
    [69]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/284

      [69] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/284

     EventSource:
    [70]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/285

      [70] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/285

     File API:
    [71]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286

      [71] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286

     File API:
    [72]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867

      [72] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867

     File API:
    [73]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867

      [73] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867

     File API:
    [74]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286287

      [74] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286287

    AB: and more PRs for Web Apps 

     File API:
    [75]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/287

      [75] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/287

     File API:
    [76]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/288

      [76] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/288

     File API:
    [77]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/289

      [77] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/289

     File API:
    [78]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/290

      [78] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/290

     File API:
    [79]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/291

      [79] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/291

     File API:
    [80]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/293

      [80] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/293

     Progress Events:
    [81]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/294

      [81] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/294

Writing Tests

    JG: I'm not sure what we want to try to accomplish in this
    session

     We are getting more contributinos

     If anyone has specific questions about "how to test X", I can
    work with them 1:1

    <aboyet> [82]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/

      [82] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/

     A new exciting resource is testthewebforward.org

     Having public events

     to write tests

     to improve interop

     It has become the "overall" name for W3C Testing Effort

     which is great [to have that brand]

     The site has lots of docs for tasks about writing tests

     Rebecca is the expert

     and she is hosting a session about the Future of TestTWF
    tomorrow

     Our test repo is GitHub (GH)

     Need to start with git and how to submit tests

     The TestTWF tutorial is great

     And one can always ask Q's in W3C's #testing or #webapps IRC
    channels

     As of today, there are 3 types of tests

     1. JavaScript

     uses testharness.js

     I can help anyone with the harness

     2. RefTests - for testing rendering

     relevant f.ex. for CSS

     could be needed by WebApps, f.ex. if the test has some
    "display"

     Instead of just creating one test, need a second file

     that serves as the "reference"

     This allows Pass/Fail based on comparing both files

     3. Manual Tests

     we try to avoid these because they are costly

     f.ex. time consuming to run

     Only want those if #1 or #2 can't be used

     Also in the future expect to accept Web Driver tests

     allows driving the browser externally

     < James introduces David Burns (DB) >

    DB: I co-edit Web Driver spec

     allows automated driving the browser simulating a user

     we aren't "stuck" in JavaScript sandbox

     We can do trusted events (e.g. logging into a specific
    service)

    DB: < gives a demo  >

    <aboyet> [83]http://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/

      [83] http://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/

    DB: Web Driver starts the browser, sets default config

     we can then do things like navigate to URLs

     can use Python, C#, Ruby and a couple of others

     FB has PHP version

     anyone can write a language binding (spec says how to do so)

     can execute arbitrary JS

     the JS is sandboxed

    DB: we also have advanced user interactions

     f.ex. shift+letter+mouse_drag can be done

     really nice for doing things outside of a JS test framework

    AB: nice!

    DB: implemented in FFox, Chome and Opera

     we use it to test FFOS

     We also allow it to access browser chrome

     If testharness.js doesn't fit, please try Web Driver

     There is interest from other browser vendors

    Travis: there is a 3rd party soln for IE

    DB: we hope all browser vendors will implement it

     Please let me know if you want to chat about Web Driver or
    get some demos

    JG: one change that is coming soon for WPT is a self-contained
    Python environment

     and that means dropping PHP

     think this will make some tests easier to write

     This eliminates installing some 3rd party stuff

     Now have to clone the repo, install several packages, edit a
    host file

     But with the changes, just run one Python script

     and then access the tests via a browser

     (f.ex. web-platform-test:8000/websockets/)

     So can run the test suite locally

    Travis: Sweet!

    JG: script is on GH

     as well as the README file

     If you need a complex test (e.g. multiple domains or ports),
    might need to read server-side.md

     There is also a "Pipes" feature

     they can be used to do things like changing headers

     Useful for XHR testing (e.g. if need to wait for the file to
    get loaded)

     Instead of hardcoding domains or ports, use the templates
    syntax

     and the replacement will occur (i.e. template resolved) when
    the tests are run

    JG: we have "asis" file support

     and can also script the server via .py files

     < see "py files" in the documentation >

    JG: the documentation includes some examples

    
    [84]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/jgraham/pyth
    on_review_2/server-side.md

      [84] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/jgraham/python_review_2/server-side.md

    < Applause for James! >

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: barstow find another Test Facilitator for IDB
    spec [recorded in
    [85]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: barstow sent James a list of WebApps' test dirs
    in w-p-t [recorded in
    [86]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action09]
    [NEW] ACTION: bateman followup with KrisK re WebMessaging test
    results [87]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebMessaging
    [recorded in
    [88]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: bateman Run the web sockets tests and put results
    in [89]http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets
    [recorded in
    [90]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: graham integrate Test Checklist with
    [91]http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html
    [recorded in
    [92]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action08]
    [NEW] ACTION: kinuko run the Workers tests on Chrome and put
    results in
    [93]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebWorkers recorded
    in
    [94]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: pieters run the Web Sockets tests and put results
    in [95]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebSockets
    [recorded in
    [96]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: talk to Tina about how to make progress on SSE
    interop [recorded in
    [97]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: travis remove the Shared Workers from the Workers
    spec [recorded in
    [98]http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html#action07]

      [87] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebMessaging
      [89] http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets
      [91] http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html
      [93] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebWorkers
      [95] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebSockets

    [End of minutes]

Received on Wednesday, 13 November 2013 09:13:23 UTC