Re: a related "native first" project

Hello.

Since I totally agree with your community group paradigm, I have just
joined your CG.
I will mention your group in the home page of the Declarative Dynamic
Extensions to HTML (dde2html) Group as a related group,
and I will propose some posts (maybe co redacted with you) to publish in
your group.
I copy paste here the introduction of the draft of dde2html in order to
describe to you what will be the subject of these posts, and to expose to
you
the deep relation there is between our two groups initiatives.

Since many years, html5 introduced various features exclusively designed to
be used with javascript. (ex : template element, open/close dialog element,
editablecontent attribute, web components)

Some years earlier, the unobtrusive javascript was a well known
recommandation.

During the great fashion of web 2.0, all attention was given to
interactivity. And it was a moment rich in innovations. But the unobtrusive
javascript recommandation became no longer even a vague memory.

dde2html aims to drastically reduce the javascript dependance.

As you said in your group description, for many years we have seen an
explosion of frameworks that pretend to make the web more easy and clean.
And with the start of the Custom Element API, things became worse. Each
framework can register their own HTML Element.
So now, HTML is no longer a language, but a meta language in which every
body can invent and bring its own vocabulary. A Babel tower.
I think this is an anti-standard approach. I read on the Internet that web
components technology "make it possible to develop framework-agnostic,
custom components."
But in reality this technology, for now, consists in hiding frameworks
under shadow dom of custom elements.
Moreover, ShadowDom and Custom Elements APIs are so complex that most sites
recommend using frameworks to implement them!
This is why reading your group description looks to me like finding an
oasis in the desert.

Today I need four supporters to start my group. I don't know how many time
I will get in order to find supporters without see my group proposal
rejected.
The draft I sent to you represents a considerable amount of work based on
many years of reflection
Supporting my group does not mean to agree with the draft specification I
wrote, since it will follow the approbation process defined by the W3C and
it will probably be modified a lot before constituting a serious candidate
recommendation.
Supporting my group just means giving to this group the possibility of
continuing to exist regarding the general approach.
So please, be the second supporter of my group. For now, I am the unique
supporter.
I think it's normal because I posted It two days ago, but I already worked
long weeks on It, and I'm afraid to see my effort disappear just because of
the supporting process...

PS : I read your OOHTML github project. OO for Object Oriented?
It seems that you want to be able to write reusable templates in HTML, and
you want to do it in a descriptive, native and standardized way.
This is exactly what dde2html aims to release.
I deliberately did not describe any interaction with javascript in the
dde2html draft to be sure that it does not become a new framework,
but a full declarative HTML standard instead.
It seems obvious to me that our concerns have the same common goal. Which
makes me very enthusiastic.

Thank you for your message.
Best regards,
Flavien

Le mer. 8 mars 2023 à 18:18, Oxford Harrison <oxharris.dev@gmail.com> a
écrit :

> Hi Flavien Guillon, thanks for being our first contributor to the
> web-native community group.
>
> Aiming to *reduce javascript requirement and perform a lot of dynamic
> behaviours in a declarative way* is a noble goal. I'll be taking a look
> at your approach in my next free moment and should have something to share
> with you as feedback.
>
> Thank you once more.
>
> Oxford Harrison
>
> On Wed, 8 Mar 2023, 11:10 Flavien Guillon, <flavien.guillon@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Complete description here :
>> https://flavi1.github.io/html-dynamic-extensions/
>>
>> Le mer. 8 mars 2023 à 10:30, Flavien Guillon <flavien.guillon@gmail.com>
>> a écrit :
>>
>>> Hi everybody.
>>> I'm an individual and I recently created a W3C account to post a related
>>> "native first" project.
>>>
>>> https://www.w3.org/community/blog/2023/03/07/proposed-group-declarative-dynamic-extensions-to-html-community-group/
>>>
>>> This is a set of html extensions that aims to reduce javascript
>>> requirement and perform a lot of dynamic behaviours in a declarative way.
>>>
>>> This project aims to extend the html separation of concerns by adding a
>>> layer between styles and the html page itself feeding the shadow dom inner
>>> content of xml / html elements. The goal is to provide a declarative way
>>> (without javascript requirement) to design shadow dom of elements using a
>>> set of templates given in an external sheet ressource (like CSS : it's
>>> called XML Design System Sheet)
>>>
>>> As a result, JS framework and CSS framework requirements are decreased
>>> in many cases.
>>> Then, you may be interested in it.
>>>
>>> For now I'm totally alone on this project, and I will greatly appreciate
>>> feedback.
>>>
>>> Finally, I will be happy if there are some supporters to this newly
>>> proposed community group.
>>> Thank you,
>>> Flavien.
>>>
>>