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Minutes for 16 Apr 2014 teleconf

From: Marcos Caceres <w3c@marcosc.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:38:25 -0400
To: "public-web-mobile@w3.org" <public-web-mobile@w3.org>
Message-ID: <etPan.534ea3f1.354fe9f9.5218@Marcoss-MacBook-Pro.local>
View online at:http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html

====

                               - DRAFT -

              Web and Mobile Interest Group Teleconference

16 Apr 2014

   [2]Agenda

      [2] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings#Teleconference_Dates_.26_Times

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-irc

Attendees

   Present
          schuki, marcosc, dom, +33.6.80.59.aabb, Mohammed_D,
          larsgk?, +1.405.708.aacc, bshambaugh, kawada_, larsgk,
          [IPcaller], tobie__, Bryan_Sullivan

   Regrets
   Chair
          SV_MEETING_CHAIR

   Scribe
          marcos

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Welcome
         2. [6]Offline
         3. [7]device orientation
         4. [8]Installable Web Apps
         5. [9]Coord with Cordova
         6. [10]Payments
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 16 April 2014

   <schuki> scribe: marcos

   <schuki> scribenick: marcosc

   <schuki> oh talk going on about tests in #webtv

   <schuki> lol marcosc i should have asked if you're still ok to
   scribe?

   <schuki> hi bshambaugh!

   <larsgk> marcosc: thanks - was away from the computer. This is
   the first time I join here - how does the irc vs voice work? -
   transcripts in both or just here for pasting code and such?

   larsgk: sorry, was in meeting
   ... we just write the minutes + make fun of each other in IRC
   :)

   <larsgk> marcosc: ok - then you can make fun of me if I don't
   manage to get the SIP working :D

   <larsgk> I can hear you but nobody hears me I guess

   <larsgk> ?

   <schuki> :/

   <larsgk> sorry

   <larsgk> I can hear you

   larsgk, np... we will get you sorted

   <larsgk> ubuntu 13.10 - trying a different client..

Welcome

   <schuki>
   [12]https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings#Teleconference_Date
   s_.26_Times

     [12] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings#Teleconference_Dates_.26_Times

   agenda^^^

   <scribe> Agenda:
   [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014A
   pr/0009.html

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Apr/0009.html

   <schuki>
   [14]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/tree/master/exa
   mples

     [14] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/tree/master/examples

Offline

   <bshambaugh> Hello WebMob

   <bshambaugh> yes

   schuki: the WebApps WG is currently working on this.

   <larsgk> went mute

   schuki: I've made a fork of the service worker repo. I've been
   gathering, use cases from various folks. In the Gh repo, you
   will see the use cases, etc. As a group, we should work on
   these use cases or put them into an application.

   <schuki>
   [15]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/tree/master/exa
   mples

     [15] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/tree/master/examples

   schuki: we currently don't have any real implementations that
   we can work from - from the browser vendors. Chrome and FireFox
   are hoping to support this soon. But even though there is no
   implementation, we can start working it regardless. Anyone can
   start working on this.
   ... please just pick a GH issue

   <schuki> marcosc: i think there may be too many things

   <schuki> ... maybe we should gather them into a list

   <larsgk> short bio: Lars Knudsen, have worked with mobile web
   tech since 2001 in larger companies, in Nokia N9/WebKit2/MeeGo
   team until mid 2012, experience with browser and webkit src, qa
   of APIs and browser, "evangelist for the common avg joe web
   developer"

   [16]https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/tree/master/ex
   amples

     [16] https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/tree/master/examples

   <schuki>
   [17]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/issues/37

     [17] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/issues/37

   <schuki> marcosc: merge some, make apps which show more use
   cases

   <schuki> ... better if we have fewer things, so we don't over
   promise

   [18]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/issues

     [18] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/issues

   <schuki> marcosc: if we gather into a separate dir, with
   targets to hit, hit three per app, this would be more
   achievable

   tobie: I just a contract with Mozilla to help them with their
   service workers imp
   ... so all of this should converge
   ... the other thing that is interesting, there is an
   implementation that use Node

   schuki: it will be great to have Tobie working on SWs so he can
   keep us up to date
   ... I have had some interest from some people to work on this
   ... I will add those people to the wiki

device orientation

   <schuki> marcosc: larsgk is also trying to work on this

   <tobie__> node.js serviceworker polyfill
   [19]https://github.com/phuu/serviceworker-polyfill/

     [19] https://github.com/phuu/serviceworker-polyfill/

   <schuki> marcosc: our group is well suited to making a
   contribution to this discussion

   <schuki> ... bringing in all problems like in net info

   <schuki> ... larsgk can you give an overview?

   <dom> (probably relevant,
   [20]https://github.com/w3c/deviceorientation/issues/4 )

     [20] https://github.com/w3c/deviceorientation/issues/4

   <schuki> larsgk: i worked in nokia on the n9 browser

   <schuki> larsgk: we thought about how there aren't many web
   game devs

   <tobie__> +1 to orientation lock being an issue for game dev.

   <schuki> ... the device orientation is an issue here

   <schuki> larsgk: symbian was portrait devices, some others were
   landscape

   <schuki> ... this meant games mapped differently per device

   <schuki> marcosc: cool!

   larsgk: I've been working with web tech for many years. I used
   to work with Nokia on one of their browsers as a developer
   evangelist - bridging between browser devs and web devs. What
   we saw inside Nokia is that different teams has implemented the
   x, y, z, differently (MC: also happened on Android). The
   current specs seem to confuse implementers. It's pretty
   important that when we do these specs we are more clear. We
   need to have a holistic vi

   ew of the APIs with regards to accelerometer data, etc.

   to keep things simple, the w3c should decide what is the
   default for all devices for orientation (i.e., what is "up").

   larsgk: we need to have a holistic view that makes orientation
   consistent across the platform

   <Zakim> dom, you wanted to comment on renewed work on device
   orientation in renewed geo wg

   dom: I agree that developing a holistic view. Just in terms of
   FYI, the geolocation WG, which is responsible for device
   orientation, is being restarted. Richt and other in that group
   have also started to look into this. In any case, it would be
   extremely useful to define this. We need a volunteer to work on
   this.

   <larsgk> I will do my best to provide examples and input

   larsgk: it would be fine - but we really need this to enable
   gaming on the Web. I'm willing to put in a lot of hours into
   this. I can work with kenneth also on this to provide even more
   inputs.

   <larsgk> larsgk@gmail.com

   <larsgk> larsgk

   <larsgk> :)

   <larsgk> on github

   <dom> [we should also lists all the specs we know are affected
   by device orientation]

   <scribe> ACTION: Marcos to set up GH for orientation work
   [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - Set up gh for orientation work
   [on Marcos Caceres - due 2014-04-23].

   marcosc: I'll add kenneth and the rest of the orientation
   people

   <larsgk> dom: a mini dependency graph around "anything
   orientation" might actually be good (something that
   could/should be done in general on web standards related to one
   another)

   <dom> +1

   <dom> yes, orientation links to portrait/landscape which links
   to window dimensions

   tobie__: I don't have much to add... except that it is great to
   look at this in detail. The whole portrait/lanscape thing takes
   a whole different color on desktop browsers...

   <larsgk> thoughts ^ ?

   tobie__: ... on desktop the semantics are different from mobile
   ... the second point, we need to align with the CSS people.
   ... device orientation, orientation locking, and CSS ... it
   would be extemely useful for this group to describe what
   areas/groups are touched by this

   dom: yes, I agree.

   <larsgk> marcosc: on desktop we don't need lock.. but if say
   "laptop" with tablet features... then it should work exactly
   the same as mobile.. actually. ?

   tobie__: we also need consider watches and non-square user
   interfaces ... as the currently language that we are using in
   these specs is problematic

   larsgk: I agree.

   <larsgk> consider "degrees" .. e.g. "0 deg", 90 180, etc.

   <larsgk> where 0 deg ~ portrait up ~ (x,y,z)=(0,1,0)

Installable Web Apps

   <schuki> marcosc: some news

   <schuki> ... microsoft said they are interested, i am hoping to
   patch up the doc and send it to them

   <schuki> ... they feel some of their use cases are not
   addressed

   <schuki> ... mainly related to needs of their store

   <schuki> ... they want to use it for their packaged apps too

   <schuki> marcosc: Google also gave some positive signals

   <schuki> ... orientation is one of the things holding up the
   draft

Coord with Cordova

   dom: a few weeks ago I spoke with the cordova/phonegap folks

   [22]http://phonegap.com/

     [22] http://phonegap.com/

   [23]https://cordova.apache.org/

     [23] https://cordova.apache.org/

   <dom>
   [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014F
   eb/0051.html [25]http://markmail.org/thread/yd3fnaixzw2aln7e

     [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Feb/0051.html
     [25] http://markmail.org/thread/yd3fnaixzw2aln7e

   dom: lets you build packaged apps to target a range of
   platforms... they provide APIs for device access. Currently the
   W3C and Cordova APIs don't align
   ... I'm hoping to work with Cordova to align the APIs ... and
   to get more feedback from the Cordova community back to the W3C

   <larsgk> in my experience: cordova is pretty slow compared to
   crosswalk - if possible to package crosswalk without the JIT/V8
   it would be great (or port/contribute to cordova to make it
   faster)?

   dom: tonight, I'm going to join a hangout with with the Cordova
   ... will report back

   <larsgk> (without the V8 for iOS)

   schuki: is there any particular APIs that they are looking at
   in particular?

   <dom> [26]http://markmail.org/thread/yd3fnaixzw2aln7e links to
   the issues that highlight the divergence between our APIs and
   theirs

     [26] http://markmail.org/thread/yd3fnaixzw2aln7e

   dom: they have about 14 or 15 APIs, but most don't align

   tobie__: my understanding is that they are not packaging a
   runtime?

   larsgk: iOS doesn't allow it

   tobie__: I was wondering if they are doing something different
   on other platforms?

   dom: I think they might let you pick a webview on Android

   tobie: the second point I want to make: when they don't provide
   the runtime, it is very hard for them to implement particular
   APIs. This might make it difficult to implement particular
   features (e.g., ones that depend on parsing HTML)

   tobie__: another problem is that bridge and native system has
   to be asynchronous.

   larsgk: I think this might be an WebKit 2 related issue....

   tobie__: the bridge can only be set up asynch and some APIs can
   only be used after "deviceready" event fires. This makes for
   some strange APIs. This makes things very hard to test
   sometimes.

   <larsgk> sync/async: we will probably not get away from that in
   the future anyway (async = better UI speed, etc. often) - but
   wasn't e.g. the orientation lock async (at least the spqc at
   some point) - e.g. "ask for lock, function(result({...})"

   dom: I looked a bit at testing as a motivation for this work.
   The other big problem is that the APIs don't even bother try to
   be WebIDL.

   marcos: the spec is very hard to read. Lots of people have
   complained about it being inaccessible

   dom: anyway, there is probably not much we can do about that in
   the short.
   ... term

   <bshambaugh> Hey guys, catch you later. Another call at
   freenode #payswarm

   marcos: we are also trying to do something similar at Mozilla.

   <schuki> [27]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases

     [27] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases

Payments

   schuki: we are done with the payment usecases, as we have
   handed them over the the Payment CG
   ... a report has been produced from the Payments CG

   <schuki>
   [28]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases/issues?sta
   te=open

     [28] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases/issues?state=open

   <schuki> thank-you!!!

   <schuki> thanks for scribing marcosc

   <schuki> :D

   np

   dom: yep

   just setting up the repo for orientation first

   <larsgk> all: sorry for the queue interruptions - I didn't know
   protocol - thanks for letting me contribute though :)

   tobie__: can I add you to team orientation?

   <tobie__> sure

   larsgk: np! thanks again for joining

   <larsgk> thanks for having me :) ttyl

   dom, sorry... I can't remember how ot (or don't have sufficient
   privileges) to make the minutes public?

   I told "RRSAgent, set logs public"

   but still getting "insufficient privileges"

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Marcos to set up GH for orientation work
   [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [30]scribe.perl version
    1.138 ([31]CVS log)
    $Date: 2014-04-16 15:35:38 $
     __________________________________________________________

     [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

   [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11
Check for newer version at [32]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
scribe/

     [32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/N//
Succeeded: s/the/a/
Succeeded: s/many/most/
Succeeded: s/dom/tobie/
Found Scribe: marcos
Found ScribeNick: marcosc
Default Present: schuki, marcosc, dom, +33.6.80.59.aabb, Mohammed_D, lar
sgk?, +1.405.708.aacc, bshambaugh, kawada_, larsgk, [IPcaller], tobie__,
 Bryan_Sullivan
Present: schuki marcosc dom +33.6.80.59.aabb Mohammed_D larsgk? +1.405.7
08.aacc bshambaugh kawada_ larsgk [IPcaller] tobie__ Bryan_Sullivan
Agenda: [33]https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings#Teleconference_Dates
_.26_Times

     [33] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings#Teleconference_Dates_.26_Times

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 16 Apr 2014
Guessing minutes URL: [34]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.ht
ml
People with action items: marcos

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
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     [35] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

--  
Marcos Caceres
Received on Wednesday, 16 April 2014 15:38:54 UTC

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