- From: Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com>
- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 15:59:22 -0700
- To: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
- CC: Alex Li <alli@microsoft.com>, "Bailey, Bruce" <Bailey@Access-Board.gov>, "public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org Force" <public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <5215464A.2050003@oracle.com>
Gregg,
I disagree with your claim below. Our existing definition text (with
/*emphasis added*/) is:
"assembly ofcontent
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content>, such as a
file, set of files, or streamed media /*that is not part of software
and that does not include its own user agent*/"
Note 3 /*only */provides further details about types of content that are
part of software, namely "software configuration and storage files such
as databases and virus definitions, as well as computer instruction
files such as source code, batch/script files, and firmware", which the
Note simply observes "are examples of files that function as part of
software <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software>and thus
are not examples of documents".
Seems to me we have plenty enough to hang Note 3 on.
Peter
On 8/21/2013 11:07 AM, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> We really don't have a basis for including Note 3. With our current
> wording -- the note adds to rather than explains -- and notes
> shouldn’t do that. So actually we shouldn’t have added the note with
> our current language since they contradict each other. The
> definition has no limitations like those added in the note.
>
> The 'single composition' language fixes this problem. and is not
> ambiguous and does not rely on 'intent' language.
>
>
>
> /Gregg/
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
> On Aug 21, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com
> <mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com>> wrote:
>
>> Gregg, all,
>>
>> The more we iterate over this and discuss the challenges arising from
>> various suggestions, the more uncomfortable I'm getting with the
>> direction this is going. Nor am I convinced of the need for something.
>>
>> On the one hand, we understandably are striving to avoid anything
>> related to "author / developer intent", as it is near impossible to
>> discern intent (e.g. "meant to function as"). On the other hand, we
>> need to avoid the inverse problem: discerning what a user might think
>> (e.g. "that appears to the user as").
>>
>>
>> While I like having something more than we had to more directly hang
>> our Note 3 off of, I'm not convinced we need it. AND I remain
>> convinced that all of the specific examples cited are already covered
>> by Note 3.
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On 8/21/2013 8:34 AM, Alex Li wrote:
>>>
>>> I like this better than the previous proposal. But I worry that we
>>> are again inventing terms that people don’t necessarily understand
>>> or may easily come up with different meaning than intended. What is
>>> a “single composition”? How do you determine something is or isn’t
>>> a “single composition”?
>>>
>>> *From:*Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 8:24 AM
>>> *To:* Bailey, Bruce
>>> *Cc:* public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org Force
>>> *Subject:* Re: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed -- use
>>> this email to comment
>>>
>>> right after I posted it I came to the same conclusion. What people
>>> have sought is something that can be judged from the author and the
>>> viewer standpoint.
>>>
>>> so "meant" "intended" "designed" etc all require knowledge from
>>> the author end.
>>>
>>> So I suggest "*that appears to the user as a single composition"*
>>>
>>> there should also be a comma after software so that it reads
>>>
>>> assembly of content, such as a file, set of files, or
>>> streamed media *that appears to the user as a single
>>> composition**,* that is not part of software, and that does
>>> not include its own user agent
>>>
>>> that would make it
>>>
>>> *document (as used in WCAG2ICT)*
>>>
>>> assembly of content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content>, such
>>> as a file, set of files, or streamed media, *<that appears
>>> to the user as a single composition>,* that is not part of
>>> software*,*and that does not include its own user agent
>>>
>>> *Note 1: *A document always requires a user agent to present
>>> its content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> to the
>>> user.
>>>
>>> *Note 2: *Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures,
>>> presentations, and movies are examples of documents.
>>>
>>> *Note 3: *Software configuration and storage files such as
>>> databases and virus definitions, as well as computer
>>> instruction files such as source code, batch/script files,
>>> and firmware, are examples of files that function as part of
>>> software
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software> and
>>> thus are not examples of documents. If and where software
>>> retrieves “information and sensory experience to be
>>> communicated to the user” from such files, it is just
>>> another part of the content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> that
>>> occurs in software and is covered by WCAG2ICT like any other
>>> parts of the software. Where such files contain one or more
>>> embedded documents, the embedded documents remain documents
>>> under this definition.
>>>
>>> *Note 4: *Anything that can present its own content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> without involving
>>> a user agent, such as a self playing book, is not a document
>>> but is software
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software>.
>>>
>>> *Note 5: *A single document may be composed of multiple
>>> files such as the video content, closed caption text, etc.
>>> This fact is not usually apparent to the end-user consuming
>>> the document / content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content>. This
>>> is similar to how a single web page can be composed of
>>> content from multiple URIs (e.g. the page text, images, the
>>> JavaScript, a CSS file etc.).
>>>
>>> /Gregg/
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>> Director Trace R&D Center
>>> Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
>>> and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
>>>
>>> Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
>>> <http://cloud4all.info/>
>>> Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International -
>>> http://Raisingthefloor.org <http://raisingthefloor.org/>
>>> and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -
>>> http://GPII.net <http://gpii.net/>
>>>
>>> On Aug 20, 2013, at 6:25 AM, "Bailey, Bruce"
>>> <Bailey@Access-Board.gov <mailto:Bailey@Access-Board.gov>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don’t disagree with the combination, but I do want to double
>>> check on something. I recall, but cannot point to anything, that
>>> for WCAG we rather deliberated avoided normative phrasing that
>>> was based on author intent. If my recollection about this is
>>> correct, then “meant to function as a single entity” is just a
>>> little too subjective. If, and only if, I am raising a valid
>>> issue then perhaps we could tweak the phrasing to something like
>>> “experienced by the end-user as a single entity”?
>>>
>>> *From:*Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu
>>> <http://trace.wisc.edu/>]
>>> *Sent:*Monday, August 19, 2013 10:52 PM
>>> *To:*Peter Korn
>>> *Cc:*Alex Li; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org
>>> <mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org> Force
>>> *Subject:*Re: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed --
>>> use this email to comment
>>>
>>> In not sure why it doesn’t -- since the hard drive files are
>>> clearly a collection and not meant to be an entity -- since each
>>> persons is different.
>>>
>>> But since we agree that that the note and the added text solve
>>> the problem together -- I think we are all set.
>>>
>>> Since we can't actually have the note 3 without support in the
>>> definition -- having the extra phrase in the definition helps
>>> the note too.
>>>
>>> So, does anyone disagree with the combination?
>>>
>>> Just double checking since it will be up for clearance on Friday
>>> where we are hoping to bring this to a conclusion and send on to
>>> WCAG WG.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>> /Gregg/
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 5:05 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com
>>> <mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Gregg, Alex,
>>>
>>> I don't see how Gregg's change addresses hard drive partitions.
>>> BUT they are already addressed by our Note 3, so I'm not worried
>>> about those.
>>>
>>> Further, as I think about this, I think the other concern of an
>>> e-mail file is likewise addressed by our Note 3 ("software
>>> configuration AND STORAGE FILES such as databases"). A mail
>>> file containing in a single file an entire folder of e-mails is
>>> fundamentally a simple flat file database STORAGE FILE.
>>>
>>> I don't mind the generalization language that Gregg suggests
>>> inserting. It makes Note 3 more of a specific example of the
>>> general new phrase Gregg proposes. But I also think we were
>>> prescient enough in crafting the language of Note 3 to cover all
>>> of the examples cited so far as potential problems.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> On 8/19/2013 1:54 PM, Alex Li wrote:
>>>
>>> Gregg,
>>>
>>> How does the change prevent readers from interpreting a hard
>>> drive partition as a “single entity”?
>>>
>>> All best,
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> *From:*Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu]
>>> *Sent:*Monday, August 19, 2013 1:32 PM
>>> *To:*public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org
>>> <mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>Force
>>> *Subject:*Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed --
>>> use this email to comment
>>>
>>> Sorry,
>>>
>>> grabbed the wrong draft - here is the actual current
>>> definition with change. (last one was missing the new
>>> note 3)
>>>
>>> G
>>>
>>> In responding to comments made during our public review of
>>> WCAG2ICT it appears that we have a flaw in our definition of
>>> document. Our current definition is:
>>>
>>> *document (as used in WCAG2ICT)*
>>>
>>> assembly of content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content>, such
>>> as a file, set of files, or streamed media that is not part
>>> of software and that does not include its own user agent
>>>
>>> *Note 1: *A document always requires a user agent to present
>>> its content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> to the
>>> user.
>>>
>>> *Note 2: *Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures,
>>> presentations, and movies are examples of documents.
>>>
>>> *Note 3: *Software configuration and storage files such as
>>> databases and virus definitions, as well as computer
>>> instruction files such as source code, batch/script files,
>>> and firmware, are examples of files that function as part of
>>> software
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software> and
>>> thus are not examples of documents. If and where software
>>> retrieves “information and sensory experience to be
>>> communicated to the user” from such files, it is just
>>> another part of the content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> that
>>> occurs in software and is covered by WCAG2ICT like any other
>>> parts of the software. Where such files contain one or more
>>> embedded documents, the embedded documents remain documents
>>> under this definition.
>>>
>>> *Note 4: *Anything that can present its own content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> without involving
>>> a user agent, such as a self playing book, is not a document
>>> but is software
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software>.
>>>
>>> *Note 5: *A single document may be composed of multiple
>>> files such as the video content, closed caption text, etc.
>>> This fact is not usually apparent to the end-user consuming
>>> the document / content
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content>. This
>>> is similar to how a single web page can be composed of
>>> content from multiple URIs (e.g. the page text, images, the
>>> JavaScript, a CSS file etc.).
>>>
>>> however, this definition is so broad that an entire email
>>> system (such as Outlook which stores all of the email in a
>>> single .PST file) would qualify as a single document. In
>>> fact, an entire hard drive (that did not contain the OS or
>>> apps that displayed it) could be considered a document.
>>>
>>> I therefore suggest that the phrase
>>>
>>> *"that is meant to function as a single entity rather than a
>>> collection,"*
>>>
>>> be added so that it reads:
>>>
>>> assembly of content, such as a file, set of files, or
>>> streamed media *that is meant to function as a single entity
>>> rather than a collection,* that is not part of software, and
>>> that does not include its own user agent
>>>
>>> Comments welcome
>>>
>>> /Gregg/
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>> Director Trace R&D Center
>>> Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
>>> and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
>>>
>>> Technical Director - Cloud4all Project
>>> -http://Cloud4all.info <http://cloud4all.info/>
>>> Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International -
>>> http://Raisingthefloor.org <http://raisingthefloor.org/>
>>> and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -
>>> http://GPII.net <http://gpii.net/>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> <oracle_sig_logo.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/>
>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522>
>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064
>> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle
>> is committed to developing practices and products that help protect
>> the environment
>
--
Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522>
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064
Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to
developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Received on Wednesday, 21 August 2013 23:00:12 UTC