RE: ACTION-23 - WCAG response to request to modify intent for 1.3.1 Info and Relationships

Hi

Although I accept that Pierce’s variant reduces the word count, I think that Andi’s variant is more consistent with the wording of all the other clauses in the mega-sentence (i.e. they mostly start with “x are …” e.g. “headings are …”, “list items are …”) as it says that “items that share a common characteristic are …”.

So, on balance, I think that Andi’s version of this over-long sentence reads better.

Best regards

Mike

From: Crowell, Pierce [mailto:Pierce.Crowell@ssa.gov]
Sent: 09 July 2012 22:27
To: 'public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org'
Subject: RE: ACTION-23 - WCAG response to request to modify intent for 1.3.1 Info and Relationships

While that helps, it is the placement that is the issue.  I can live with it, but I made one slight edit for reading relief (removed “ITEMS THAT SHARE A COMMON CHARACTERISTIC ARE ORGANIZED INTO A” and changed a couple other words).

Should we post this to the survey or just discuss at tomorrow’s meeting (Note: I may not be able to attend)?

Pierce

Sighted users perceive structure AND RELATIONSHIPS through various visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from paragraphs by blank lines; list items are preceded by a bullet and perhaps indented; paragraphs are separated by a blank line; form fields may be positioned as groups that share text labels; a different background color may be used to indicate that several items are related to each other; words that have special status are indicated by changing the font family and /or bolding, italicizing, or underlining them; TABLES ORGANIZE ITEMS WITH ROWS AND COLUMNS WHERE THE RELATIONSHIP OF CELLS SHARING THE SAME ROW OR COLUMN AND THE RELATIONSHIP OF EACH CELL TO ITS ROW AND/OR COLUMN HEADER ARE NECESSARY FOR COMPREHENSION; and so on. Having these structures and relationships programmatically determined or available in text ensures that information important for comprehension will be perceivable by all.


From: Andi Snow-Weaver [mailto:andisnow@us.ibm.com]<mailto:[mailto:andisnow@us.ibm.com]>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 4:40 PM
To: Crowell, Pierce
Cc: 'public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org'
Subject: RE: ACTION-23 - WCAG response to request to modify intent for 1.3.1 Info and Relationships


Pierce,

We don't have to accept this. We can try again.

How about this?

Sighted users perceive structure AND RELATIONSHIPS through various visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from paragraphs by blank lines; list items are preceded by a bullet and perhaps indented; paragraphs are separated by a blank line; form fields may be positioned as groups that share text labels; a different background color may be used to indicate that several items are related to each other; words that have special status are indicated by changing the font family and /or bolding, italicizing, or underlining them; ITEMS THAT SHARE A COMMON CHARACTERISTIC ARE ORGANIZED INTO A TABLE WHERE THE RELATIONSHIP OF CELLS SHARING THE SAME ROW OR COLUMN AND THE RELATIONSHIP OF EACH CELL TO ITS ROW AND/OR COLUMN HEADER ARE NECESSARY FOR UNDERSTANDING; and so on. Having this structure and these relationships programmatically determined or available in text ensures that information important for comprehension will be perceivable by all.

Andi
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[cid:image002.gif@01CD5E30.CA43E220]

Andi Snow-Weaver
Accessibility Standards Program Manager
Human Ability & Accessibility Center

Tel: +1-720-663-2789
Email: andisnow@us.ibm.com<mailto:andisnow@us.ibm.com>

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[cid:image003.gif@01CD5E30.CA43E220]"Crowell, Pierce" ---07/09/2012 03:20:54 PM---If they were repetitive, then they selected the lesser of the two.  The result is now we lost the on

From: "Crowell, Pierce" <Pierce.Crowell@ssa.gov<mailto:Pierce.Crowell@ssa.gov>>
To: "'public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org'" <public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>>
Date: 07/09/2012 03:20 PM
Subject: RE: ACTION-23 - WCAG response to request to modify intent for 1.3.1  Info and  Relationships

________________________________



If they were repetitive, then they selected the lesser of the two.  The result is now we lost the only mention of the word “table” in all of the INTENT sections.  At least we still have his cousin “tabular.”

I’m easy on closing AI-23 if we are willing to add “row, column, and header” to the examples in 4.1.2.  I really wanted it in 1.3.1, but if there is no clarity there, and I see no added clarity in this outcome, then a reference in the examples list is desired.

Pierce

From: Andi Snow-Weaver [mailto:andisnow@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 3:25 PM
To: public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>
Subject: ACTION-23 - WCAG response to request to modify intent for 1.3.1 Info and Relationships


Last week the WCAG working group reviewed our request to modify the intent for 1.3.1 as follows:
Replace the current last paragraph which reads:

There may also be cases where it may be a judgment call about what information should appear in text and what would need to be directly associated. However, wherever possible it is necessary for the information to be programmatically determined rather than providing a text description before encountering the table.

With the following paragraphs  ( a new one plus the paragraph above slightly edited)

Structure and relationships are often visually perceivable. For instance, when information is presented in tabular form the visual structure and relationship of one cell to another, the structure and relationship of one cell to all the cells sharing the same row or column, and the relationship of one cell to the row and/or column header are necessary for understanding information in a table. Having this structure and these relationships programmatically determined or available in text ensures that information important for comprehension will be perceivable to all.

There may also be cases where it may be a judgment call as to whether the relationships should be programmatically determined or be presented in text. However, when technologies support programmatic relationships, it is strongly encouraged that information and relationships be programmatically determined rather than described in text.

Per the survey results and the group discussion, the working group feels that the first paragraph is repetitive of what is already in the second paragraph. Instead of adding our first proposed paragraph, they agreed to this resolution:
RESOLUTION: 2nd paragraph gets replaced with “Sighted users perceive structure through various visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from paragraphs by blank lines; list items are preceded by a bullet and perhaps indented; paragraphs are separated by a blank line; items that share a common characteristic are organized into tabular rows and columns with their headers; form fields may be positioned as groups that share text labels; a different background color may be used to indicate that several items are related to each other; words that have special status are indicated by changing the font family and /or bolding, italicizing, or underlining them and so on. HAVING THIS STRUCTURE AND THESE RELATIONSHIPS PROGRAMMATICALLY DETERMINED OR AVAILABLE IN TEXT ENSURES THAT INFORMATION IMPORTANT FOR COMPREHENSION WILL BE PERCEIVABLE TO ALL.
With regard to the second paragraph of our proposal, they agreed to this resolution:
RESOLUTION: replace the seventh paragraph with "There may also be cases where it may be a judgment call as to whether the relationships should be programmatically determined or be presented in text. However, when technologies support programmatic relationships, it is strongly encouraged that information and relationships be programmatically determined rather than described in text.
If there are no objections, with these WCAG resolutions, we can close ACTION-23 tomorrow.

Andi