Re: Comments on WCAG2ICT Overview

Thanks for the comments back Mary Joe. I am an inconvenient voice at
times.  I am not sure why the w3 spent time and money on relatively
unchanged "recommendations" especially when so few feel compelled to follow
regulations (ADA in particular)

Since they are just recommendations we don't see much if any effect in
kiosk world. We read through and nothing over and above what a general
usable UI with assistive technology (which you don't cover) is virtually
mandated in self-service.

A couple of my members are LG Business and Samsung and I have a real
problem with their big screen TVs, LCD monitors, interfaces, and don't get
me started on tiny finger remotes. LG is very attentive to ADA and
accessibility I will say.

More customer oriented would be the SCOs in grocery stores. NCR main UI
designer for SCOs declined/refused to comment on Whole Foods Amazon
terrible iteration. And NCR inattention caused major lawsuit in California
for Walmart.  Phil is on our ADA Advisory Board Working Group and has
always been a big help to me so no offense to him. He has very little to do
with Atlanta.  By the time you get to ATMs they will number half in number
of today. Cash, at least in the US, is right there with Check21

Customer-facing POS passed the tipping point 2 years ago and is still the
wild west. 30X the POS systems compared to ATMs much less kiosks.

My problem W3-wise is that in large format too often poorly designed
websites are "relocated" onto customer-facing screens.

Last week I did a photo tour of Living Spaces (250K sq feet new store in
upscale colorado suburb).  So much for W3C when you cannot even reach the
button (which didn't work by the way)
https://kioskindustry.org/kiosks-at-living-spaces-colorado-in-the-wild/

*-------------------Signature----------------------------*
Thanks very much for your support!
*We are at IAAPA <https://kioskindustry.org/iaapa-kiosk-update/> in
November*
*Here is my calendar <https://calendar.app.google/nJ2xxkXgvmbYf1c39> for
calls*

Craig

Kiosk Association manager & Consultant
Craig Allen Keefner
720.324.1837 m
www.linkedin.com/in/kiosk
craig.keefner@gmail.com
Teams or Zoom for share



On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:07 PM Mary Jo Mueller <maryjom@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Hi Craig,
>
>
>
> The WCAG2ICT task force is glad you and other KMA members will be
> reviewing the WCAG2ICT First Public Working Draft.
>
> In answer to the questions in your previous email to the list:
>
>    - In the end, this document is just suggestions/recommended
>    considerations regarding "closed systems" right?
>    *Answer:* Yes. This document is not intended to set requirements (is
>    non-normative). It simply provides interpretation of WCAG Success Criteria
>    when applied to non-web software and documentation. The task force makes
>    notes where this may not be easily adaptable, as in the Success Criteria
>    Problematic for Closed Functionality section. It also provides guidance and
>    word substitutions when web-specific language is used in WCAG success
>    criteria, which eases the interpretation. The intent is to help
>    manufacturers as well as standards makers understand how widespread
>    application of WCAG in non-web contexts can be done, yet to point out areas
>    where such application may not be as easy – especially for closed
>    functionality products where a user’s assistive technology cannot be
>    installed.
>
>
>
> We also want to call to your attention that WCAG2ICT does not comment on
> hardware aspects of products, because the basic constructs on which WCAG
> 2.2 is built do not apply to these. This limitation of scope is listed in
> the Excluded from Scope
> <https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#excluded-from-scope> section.
>
>    - This doc is oriented to WCAG 2.2 right?
>    *Answer:* Yes. The first draft only has WCAG 2.1 since 2.2 is not yet
>    a Recommendation. The next draft will include WCAG 2.2.
>    - What are the other closed systems besides your typical kiosk
>    (McDonalds self-order e.g.)
>    *Answer:* The task force has been thinking about a wide variety of
>    products with closed functionality beyond the specific “systems” examples
>    mentioned in the document. It is debatable whether maintaining a specific
>    list in the document is useful since it could never be comprehensive and
>    will become stale again over time. Examples the task force has considered
>    include: printers, watches, iOT devices, telephones (including mobile and
>    IP phones), smart speakers and televisions, set-top boxes (e.g. cable box,
>    DVR), tablets, VR headsets, ATMs, PoS, and kiosks used for a variety of
>    purposes (including travel kiosks used for ticketing and check-in).
>    - What's the deadline for providing comments and where do I send them?
>    *Answer:* The deadline for providing comments on this First Public
>    draft is September 29. Comments can be made at any time before the WCAG2ICT
>    update is a finalized Note by either sending comments to this mailing list
>    or by opening GitHub issues
>    <https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/new> in the WCAG2ICT document
>    repository.
>
> The task force appreciates that you took the time to post about the draft
> review and bring it to the attention of your colleagues in the KMA. Early
> public drafts provide the interim exposure to wider public review as the
> task force continues to develop content - a valuable part of the process.
>
> Since this draft focused on including new WCAG 2.1 requirements and
> definitions to the 2013 WCAG2ICT, it’s not surprising you found old
> technology examples of closed systems. We are still making further changes
> that include: updates for Closed Functionality software, adding WCAG 2.2
> requirements and definitions, addressing open issues, and refreshing stale
> content in other sections. We have noted the outdated examples that require
> updates in GitHub issue #217 <https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/217>.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Mary Jo Mueller
>
> IBM Accessibility Standards Program Manager
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Craig Allen Keefner <craig.keefner@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 1:11 PM
> *To: *Day, Phil <Phil.Day@ncr.com>
> *Cc: *public-wcag2ict-comments@w3.org <public-wcag2ict-comments@w3.org>
> *Subject: *[EXTERNAL] Re: Comments on WCAG2ICT Overview
>
> I read thru the docs and here is my post on it. We'll collect comments and
> suppose I will send them to this address https: //kma.
> global/guidance-by-wcag2ict-on-closed-systems/ Doesn't seem to be that many
> changes from the 2013 2. 0 version. I'm
>
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> I read thru the docs and here is my post on it. We'll collect comments and
> suppose I will send them to this address
>
> https://kma.global/guidance-by-wcag2ict-on-closed-systems/
>
>
>
> Doesn't seem to be that many changes from the 2013 2.0 version.
>
>
>
> I'm somewhat baffled by your examples of closed systems (reiterated from
> the 2013 doc).  I would have thought POS, POS terminals, Grovery SCOs and
> ATMs which comprise the vast majority of "closed systems" today would have
> been the more relevant examples for you to note (not ebooks, OS login
> screens or "travel kiosks").  For that matter, modern TVs these days.  No
> mention of mobile apps? There are many more menu boards than kiosks for
> that matter. Not sure what "travel kiosks" are specifically to be honest.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *-------------------Signature----------------------------*
>
> Thanks very much for your support!
>
> *We are at IAAPA <https://kioskindustry.org/iaapa-kiosk-update/> in
> November*
>
> *Here is my calendar <https://calendar.app.google/nJ2xxkXgvmbYf1c39> for
> calls*
>
>
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> Kiosk Association manager & Consultant
>
> Craig Allen Keefner
>
> 720.324.1837 m
>
> www.linkedin.com/in/kiosk
>
> craig.keefner@gmail.com
>
> Teams or Zoom for share
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 10:28 AM Day, Phil <Phil.Day@ncr.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Craig,
>
>
>
> Thanks for taking the time to comment on this draft. The task force has
> spent a lot of time considering closed functionality products, including
> kiosks. We also have some participants within the task force with
> experience working with kiosks (both software and hardware). Sending out
> drafts for public review is an important way for our task force to obtain a
> wider review of the WCAG2ICT document. We welcome your input and that of
> others in your association who may have more diverse product knowledge, as
> we recognize that this is a challenging area. If there are specific changes
> that you think are required, please submit your comments. You may find the
> sections focusing on Closed Functionality to be particularly relevant to
> kiosks (including Section 3
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#closed-functionality>, and Appendix A
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#success-criteria-problematic-for-closed-functionality>
> ).
>
> We are still working on updates to Appendix A
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#success-criteria-problematic-for-closed-functionality>,
> so any input you submit can help us to refine and further improve this
> section.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Phil Day, on behalf of the WCAG2ICT Task Force.
>
>
>
>