RE: GL 3.1 L3 SC4 (Section titles)

While I'm always for proposals that reduce the number of success
criteria, I worry that if we only require titles and heading to be
descriptive, we never require that there be titles at all. 

However, I do like combining the two requirements for being descriptive.
What about deleting GL 3.1 L3 SC4, and splitting GL 2.4 L2 SC3 into two
success criteria:
<proposal>
GL 2.4 L2 SC3a: Delivery units have titles.

GL 2.4 L2 SC3b: Titles and headings are descriptive.
</proposal>

Then we can combine the discussion of what it means to be descriptive.

Loretta Guarino Reid
lguarino@adobe.com
Adobe Systems, Acrobat Engineering 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John M Slatin [mailto:john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu]
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 11:51 AM
> To: Loretta Guarino Reid; public-wcag-teamb@w3.org
> Subject: RE: GL 3.1 L3 SC4 (Section titles)
> 
> Loretta writes:
> 
> <q>I am also working on the guide doc for GL 2.4 L2 SC3, "Delivery
units
> have descriptive titles". </q>
> 
> Thanks for putting these two SC next to each other, Loretta. My
> suggestion was to change GL 3.1 L3 SC4 to read:
> 
> <proposed>
> Titles and headings are descriptive.
> </proposed>
> 
> I was thinking that this wording would apply to both delivery unit
> titles and section headings.
> 
> But now I see a possible redundancy, since GL 2.4 L2 SC3 requires
> descriptive titles for delivery units.
> 
> To resolve this, I propose:
> 1. Change GL 2.4 L2 SC3 using the wording proposed above:
> <newProposalForGL2.4L2SC3>
> Titles and headings are descriptive.
> </newProposalForGL2.4L2SC3>
> 
> And 2:
> <deleteGL3.1L3SC4>
> Section titles are descriptive.
> </deleteGL3.1L3SC4>
> 
> Rationale: Descriptive titles for delivery units and descriptive
section
> headings both aid orientation and navigation (as well as
understanding).
> So it's appropriate to put them under GL 2.4. I also think this is
> important enough to warrant placement at L2.
> 
> If there is no support for combining titles for delivery units and
> headings at L2, then I would suggest the following:
> 
> 1. Retain GL 2.4 L2 SC3 (Delivery units have descriptive titles).
> 2. Modify GL 3.1 L3 SC4 as follows: Headings are descriptive.
> 
> I worry that the latter is too HTML-centric, but again it avoids
forcing
> us to define "section" in a way we couldn't live with.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> "Good design is accessible design."
> 
> Dr. John M. Slatin, Director
> Accessibility Institute
> University of Texas at Austin
> FAC 248C
> 1 University Station G9600
> Austin, TX 78712
> ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524
> email jslatin@mail.utexas.edu
> Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Loretta Guarino Reid [mailto:lguarino@adobe.com]
> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 4:21 PM
> To: John M Slatin; public-wcag-teamb@w3.org
> Subject: Re: GL 3.1 L3 SC4 (Section titles)
> 
> 
> This is a nice suggestion.
> 
> I am also working on the guide doc for GL 2.4 L2 SC3, "Delivery units
> have descriptive titles". I find myself wrestling with trying to
> describe descriptive titles in both places. I think we want the
> definitions and techniques to be consistent,  but I don't think this
> qualifies as a glossary term.
> 
> I think your proposal would make it easier to share the techniques for
> making a title descriptive. I worry that the current techniques for
> sections are context dependent, that is, they depend on the other
> headers that will be scanned at the same time. Maybe this is an
argument
> for removing those techniques, although I think they are important for
> some uses.
> 
> Loretta
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/9/05 11:59 AM, "John M Slatin" <john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu>
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Sorry to be chiming in so late with this. But I think the proposed
> > definition of "section" is problematic.
> >
> > The proposal is to define a "section" as a "self-contained" part of
an
> 
> > authored unit. I worry that, if taken literally, this would include
> > every element in HTML that has an open and close tag. I know that's
> > absurd, but <p>yatta yatta</p> is self-contained, and for that
matter
> > so is <a>link to something</a>.
> >
> > It may also be a problem that there's no such thing as a <section>
> > element in HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.x.
> >
> > However, I'm not sure the definition is at the root of the problem.
I
> > think it might be the SC itself.
> >
> > In the SC we try to require a certain kind of treatment for "section
> > titles," but then it turns out we were making very HTML-specific
> > assumptions that depend on a loosely shared convention about what
> > constitutes a "section" within an HTML document.
> >
> > What about something like the following for the SC itself?
> >
> > <proposed>
> > Titles and headings are descriptive.
> > </proposed>
> >
> > My thought in proposing this is that this SC is concerned only with
> > the characteristics of the title or heading-- we don't really care
> > whether it titles a delivery unit or a section within a text
document.
> 
> > Where sections are concerned, all we can require is that *if* an
> > author puts a heading on it, the heading should be descriptive. We
may
> 
> > not like it if the author doesn't provide such titles, but I think
> > that's a different issue.
> >
> > Also, if the above proposal is accepted, we won't need to tie
> > ourselves in knots trying to define "section". <grin>
> >
> > Note: There is a <section> element in the proposed XHTML 2.0
> > specification:
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#sec_8.8.
> > If the <section> element is used, then it has a child element called
> <h>
> > which defines the logical structure. These can be nested.
> >
> > The  old familiar <h1>...<h6> are also available in XHTML 2.0.
> >
> > There's potential for confusion here, and I think that makes a good
> > argument for omitting the word "section" from the SC and adding the
> > word "headings."
> >
> > John
> > PS Sorry I didn't do this in the WIKI, but I wasn't able to get in
> > this afternoon. "Good design is accessible design."
> >
> > Dr. John M. Slatin, Director
> > Accessibility Institute
> > University of Texas at Austin
> > FAC 248C
> > 1 University Station G9600
> > Austin, TX 78712
> > ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524
> > email jslatin@mail.utexas.edu
> > Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility
> >
> >

Received on Monday, 10 October 2005 19:08:39 UTC