Re: Draft issue on saving transcripts

Kim,

This is the exact reason I raised the issue to the group. Currently we cannot copy and paste from the transcript at all.

“I'm still thinking that the most practical way to use automatic transcription may just be to make it available in a way that the scribe can easily consult and maybe cut-and-paste from during scribing. Seems like this would make scribing easier.”

Best,

JaEun Jemma Ku, Ph.D.
Director of IT Accessibility
ADAC<https://www.adacoordinator.org/page/Requirements>, Section 508 Trusted Tester<https://www.dhs.gov/trusted-tester>, PMP<https://www.pmi.org/certifications/project-management-pmp>, MIS<https://ils.indiana.edu/programs/master-information-science.html>
Editor of W3C ARIA Authoring Practice Guide<https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/>
Office for Access and Equity <https://oae.uic.edu/> and Technology Solutions<https://it.uic.edu/>
University of Illinois Chicago<https://www.uic.edu/>
Email: jku@uic.edu<mailto:jku@uic.edu>

From: Kim Patch <kim@scriven.com>
Date: Thursday, February 23, 2023 1:35 PM
To: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>, WAI Coordination Call <public-wai-cc@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Draft issue on saving transcripts
Punctuation, separating speakers and paragraphing are all difficult to do automatically, and of course there will be the occasional or not so occasional wrong word, even with systems that allow users to add a list of acronyms and common words.

This is one reason it takes more time than people realize to correct automatic transcription.

I'm still thinking that the most practical way to use automatic transcription may just be to make it available in a way that the scribe can easily consult and maybe cut-and-paste from during scribing. Seems like this would make scribing easier.

Having said all that…

I think there is a way to improve one aspect of automatic transcription – it would be possible to sidestep the separating speakers issue on a zoom call, in theory anyway, because we are all coming in on different lines.

Cheers,
Kim

On 2/23/2023 12:52 PM, Alastair Campbell wrote:
I did a quick test by piping some meeting audio into Word, the issues were:


  1.  It’s designed as a dictation tool, so although it worked, it all comes out in one block of text.

     *   There’s no attempt at punctuation, let alone separating speakers.

  1.  You can’t do anything else whilst it is transcribing, if you click onto another window it stops.
  2.  You can’t move the cursor to go back and edit live as it just starts putting the transcription there.

Those issues rule it out as something a chair could do whilst managing a meeting, and I don’t think it’s fair to pick on one person to be scribe every week (or get people to install software for this).

The Google equivalent may be available to a paid subscriber (it isn’t on my account), it might be somewhat better?

As a replacement for scribing I think it would need to:

  1.  Be live editable.
  2.  Differentiate speakers (at least start a new paragraph with each speaker).
  3.  Either

     *   Be run by a chair, and then any volunteer scribe can live-edit, or
     *   be run by anyone without an installation / license.

Cheers,

-Alastair


From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com><mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>
Date: Thursday, 23 February 2023 at 15:04
To: Mary Jo Mueller <maryjom@us.ibm.com><mailto:maryjom@us.ibm.com>, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com><mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@gmail.com><mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>, kim@scriven.com<mailto:kim@scriven.com> <kim@scriven.com><mailto:kim@scriven.com>
Cc: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org><mailto:cooper@w3.org>, WAI Coordination Call <public-wai-cc@w3.org><mailto:public-wai-cc@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Draft issue on saving transcripts
I think we’d need a tool that pipes the automated transcript into an editable document, but I’m not sure if such a thing exists?

I think Google docs has a “Voice typing” feature, perhaps combined with something like Loopback<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frogueamoeba.com%2Floopback%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C6b177e7d4dbb49c3755808db15d5250a%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638127777435201457%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bgluG7oA0oIHPQOuc4YemTGMPLq3TDnws9VZhWtGo1Y%3D&reserved=0>?

-Alastair


From: Mary Jo Mueller <maryjom@us.ibm.com><mailto:maryjom@us.ibm.com>
Date: Thursday, 23 February 2023 at 14:31
To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com><mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@gmail.com><mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>, kim@scriven.com<mailto:kim@scriven.com> <kim@scriven.com><mailto:kim@scriven.com>
Cc: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org><mailto:cooper@w3.org>, WAI Coordination Call <public-wai-cc@w3.org><mailto:public-wai-cc@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Draft issue on saving transcripts
There is no on-the-fly editing capabilities in Zoom or other meeting software. There would have to be someone that watches the transcript and takes note of errors along the way and then the corrections would have to be incorporated in post-meeting editing of the transcript.

Best regards,

Mary Jo Mueller
IBM Accessibility Standards Program Manager

From: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com><mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 9:28 AM
To: Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@gmail.com><mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>, kim@scriven.com<mailto:kim@scriven.com> <kim@scriven.com><mailto:kim@scriven.com>
Cc: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org><mailto:cooper@w3.org>, WAI Coordination Call <public-wai-cc@w3.org><mailto:public-wai-cc@w3.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Draft issue on saving transcripts
I’ve been pondering this issue as well, since even though the auto transcript has its drawbacks, it has reached the point where it’s possible to either detect the patterns of issues or work around them. I think scribing is still important,
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I’ve been pondering this issue as well, since even though the auto transcript has its drawbacks, it has reached the point where it’s possible to either detect the patterns of issues or work around them.

I think scribing is still important, it can be good to have a way to cut out comments or things that don’t need to be in the meeting record (chatter, etc.). I wonder if there is a way in Zoom or another application for there to be transcript editing on the fly, kind of a hybrid transcript-scribe situation. Someone would “scribe” the meeting, but their job would be to correct and edit the transcript on the fly.

Does anyone know if that’s possible?

-Wendy

From: Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@gmail.com><mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, February 20, 2023 at 7:31 PM
To: kim@scriven.com<mailto:kim@scriven.com> <kim@scriven.com><mailto:kim@scriven.com>
Cc: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org><mailto:cooper@w3.org>, WAI Coordination Call <public-wai-cc@w3.org><mailto:public-wai-cc@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Draft issue on saving transcripts

[EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.
Good point Kim!

On Mon, Feb 20, 2023, 1:06 PM Kim Patch <kim@scriven.com<mailto:kim@scriven.com>> wrote:
A couple of thoughts on auto transcriptions.
I think they are useful, used wisely.
There will be mistakes, and consequential mistakes like can for can't are still all too common (I've done a lot of testing over the past decade)
I think the best use is to make it available during the call to help scribing so the scribe can look back or even cut-and-paste chunks.
It is tedious to clean up a transcription.
If a transcription is saved the audio should be saved with it.

Cheers,
Kim
On 2/20/2023 12:53 PM, Katie Haritos-Shea wrote:
+1 it is a good idea. And help many users

On Mon, Feb 20, 2023, 12:22 PM Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org<mailto:cooper@w3.org>> wrote:

Hi - we chatted about this a bit during the WAI CC call today. I'll give a couple days for people to review on list, and will file the issue Wednesday if there are no objections. Michael
On 2023-02-20 9:25 a.m., Michael Cooper wrote:

Following up on the discussion of saving transcriptions: https://www.w3.org/2023/02/13-waicc-minutes#t04<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2023%2F02%2F13-waicc-minutes%23t04&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C6b177e7d4dbb49c3755808db15d5250a%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638127777435201457%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=90bH9Uk3ceal%2FC28Fup4y2%2Fa9W1ZL5mWK%2BBWFSgP%2Fos%3D&reserved=0>

I found the content in the Guide that we would ultimately want updated: https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/transcripts.html<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FGuide%2Fmeetings%2Ftranscripts.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C6b177e7d4dbb49c3755808db15d5250a%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638127777435201457%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s5PcPg7u3U7AxGicK4MZAiLad3K09%2B4xlTQIFYS4IrI%3D&reserved=0>. It mentions some reasons not to allow saving that we would need to address. For now, this draft issue is meant to open discussion without having the full solution.

===

@a11ydoer raised a question that we discussed in the WAI coordination call, about the meeting transcript saving policy. The Guide<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FGuide%2Fmeetings%2Ftranscripts.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C6b177e7d4dbb49c3755808db15d5250a%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638127777435201457%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s5PcPg7u3U7AxGicK4MZAiLad3K09%2B4xlTQIFYS4IrI%3D&reserved=0> instructs staff to disallow transcript saving, for important reasons. But we now have some experience with the feature, and in most of my groups it has become routine to turn on auto-transcription as an accessibility and language support. While transcripts have errors, they are generally understandable. Groups have begun to wonder if scribing should be a priority, especially given the participation cost to the scribe in a given meeting. Therefore, we would like to explore incorporating current experience into the transcript saving policy.

I believe many of the concerns we have with saving transcripts could be addressed with policy and guidance. I believe it is still inappropriate to use automated transcripts as a formal meeting record, but I think it is appropriate to allow them to supplement the official record.

There are also social concerns about the use of saved transcripts. While we can't know what would happen in an untried experiment, our social experience with live captioning has been encouraging. People are used to it, and I think the step to saving transcripts is less of a leap than it was.

We look forward to discussing an appropriate way to make use of this new technology.

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______________________________________

Kimberly Patch
(617) 325-3966

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______________________________________

Kimberly Patch
(617) 325-3966

patchontech.com
@patchontech
scriven.com/kimpatch
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