Re: Feedback Before-After Demo

Hi All
It was good to meet - re the show casing question: if anyone hears of any local national or international competitions I would be happy to collect these into a folder of  teaching resources for my EU project Design for All@einclusion (www.edean.org). 
For Shadi's demo, I think the layout just needs to be simple enough not to confuse a beginner - and maybe somewhere else to  point to some more exciting resources for example last year on another project I found http://accessites.org/site/category/showcase/   and also  http://w3csites.com/  which I then  searched using the term accessibility and explored around to find an example of work on an SME site.
I accept the 'out of scope' comment but it is helpful at the practical level to see examples of best practice.
best wishes
Suzette

 -----Original Message----- 
 From: public-wai-age-request@w3.org on behalf of Shadi Abou-Zahra 
 Sent: Mon 27-Oct-08 2:55 PM 
 To: Isabelle Motte 
 Cc: public-wai-age@w3.org 
 Subject: [SPAM: 10.001] Re: Feedback Before-After Demo
 
 


 Hi Isabelle,
 
 I will take this feedback and try to make the new version of the Demo
 more visually appealing. We explicitly tried to use a "modern" design
 with a typical 3-column layout. We will see if we can do more than that
 in the updated version.
 
 However, visual appeal is a matter of taste and what one designer likes
 will not be attractive to another. We should not expect to much here as
 this is primarily and educational resource for Web developers.
 
 As to your idea on an award or list of show-case Web sites, I appreciate
 your suggestions but it is out of the scope of the WAI-AGE Project. We
 will continue to keep it in our wish-list and look for opportunities to
 pursue such work.
 
 Thanks,
    Shadi
 
 
 Isabelle Motte wrote:
 > I will try to make my ideas more clear.
 >
 > A "sexy" website is a website build with a graphic charter where everything as
 > been tought to touch the target public. Colors, icons, banners,
 > illustrations, labels ... have been choosen for the user to feel good.
 >
 > This design goes much further than the blocs positions.
 > You have to think the infographist's job as a painter job : it creates the
 > look of the inteface. He gives an image of the interface that the technical
 > developper has to implement.
 >
 > It is difficult to make academic example "sexy" because they do not have an
 > actual target public. And that is an infographist's job, that is not mine.
 > Academic examples are however interresting for webdeveloppers that need to
 > develop accessible web sites. The exemple you build with the suggestions made
 > seems to be complete. That is a good job.
 > But these won't convince developpers that need to make "sexy" websites and
 > that often see non sexy accessible web sites. Accessible implies "non sexy"
 > in a lot of developpers' mind.
 >
 > In webdevelopment, we are used to inspired our interfaces from existing
 > interfaces that we adapt. Presenting some "sexy" templates should help
 > changing the minds and uses.
 >
 > These days, web developments often imply content management systems (CMS) or
 > other dynamic website systems (wikis, blogs, ...). It is become a trend for
 > every CMS to organize an infographist prize for the best interfaces.  Why not
 > to propose some WAI membre to participate the evaluation ?
 >
 > WAI evaluation should also arrive after a "sexy" prize election. Take the 5
 > sexiest web sites of the year and make a WAI classification ...
 >
 > Actual websites presenting a version "before" and "after" integrating
 > accessibility guidelines should also be presented. Contacs with commercials
 > involved in accessibility developments should help finding such examples.
 >
 > The particularity of websites is that they evolve every day. If a WAI prize is
 > given it is for one web interface at one precise moment. But at least
 > a "frozen" version of the main pages of the site should be given as an
 > inspiration for developpers.
 >
 >
 > You get reason, Shadi, I have no time to organize a prize. But I only want you
 > to know I am not sure the academic examples actually help the WAI to be more
 > accessible ... ;-)
 >
 >
 > Isabelle
 >
 >
 >
 > Le Monday 27 October 2008 14:13:20 Shadi Abou-Zahra, vous avez écrit :
 >> Hi Isabelle,
 >>
 >> Thank you for your feedback. We have looked into thos idea in the past
 >> but it proved to be very difficult for several reasons:
 >>
 >> - who evaluates the Web sites in question?
 >> - how do we guarantee that they do not change?
 >> - how do we maintain such an idea scalable?
 >>
 >> The Demo attempts to provide a selection of realistic examples from many
 >> of the Web sites we encounter. Please let us know if you have specific
 >> suggestions on making the Demo less academic and more usable for you (or
 >> if you volunteer to organize an award and maintain a list of accessible
 >> and best-practice Web sites *wink*).
 >>
 >> Best,
 >>    Shadi
 >>
 >> Isabelle Motte wrote:
 >>> I am a web developper and I am quite reluctant about this "academic"
 >>> example that do not provide an actual content.
 >>>
 >>> Why not to propose a list of "sexy" accessible web sites that could
 >>> inspire the web developpers ? A special honorific prize could even be
 >>> organized ...
 >>>
 >>> Isabelle
 >>>
 >>> Le Friday 10 October 2008 10:38:54 Shadi Abou-Zahra, vous avez écrit :
 >>>> Hi Michael,
 >>>>
 >>>> Thank you for your comments. Many of these are about the coding so let's
 >>>> discuss them when we implement the changes. For now, we need to identify
 >>>> any functional changes to the Demo that would better highlight that WCAG
 >>>>   also improves the user experience for older people.
 >>>>
 >>>> Do you have specific thoughts about the types of accessibility barriers
 >>>> that we should further include in the Demo?
 >>>>
 >>>> Regards,
 >>>>    Shadi
 >>>>
 >>>> Michael Stenitzer wrote:
 >>>>> dear all,
 >>>>>
 >>>>> a bit late my additional comments on the before and after demo
 >>>>> (no claim to be complete):
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/after/index

 >>>>>
 >>>>> * teasers in right column: link the headline, make the whole teaser
 >>>>>   clickable with progressive enhancement techniques, inkl.
 >>>>> hover-effects (CSS,JS)
 >>>>>
 >>>>>   rationale:
 >>>>>   - increase clickable areas.
 >>>>>   - make areas clickable that might be expected to be links.
 >>>>>   - indicate clickability with visual effects.
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * drop-down nav in the header (quick menu):
 >>>>>   rationale: i don't see any reason for this. it is a mere duplication
 >>>>>   of the main navigation and needs much more fine motor skills (and
 >>>>>   clicks) than ordinary links. it actually hides information instead of
 >>>>>   providing additional link opportunities.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>   if you want to show an accessible drop-down-menu make it more useful:
 >>>>>   different links, more links (thats actually the reason why we use
 >>>>>   those items), consider a collapsed UL with progressive enhancement or
 >>>>>   eg. make the quicknav a ordinary list of links and place it somewhere
 >>>>>   else, eg. in the footer like many websites do it nowadays.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/after/info

 >>>>>
 >>>>> * increase / improve use of whitespace
 >>>>>   rationale: distinction of unrelated information. increase
 >>>>> readability.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>   eg. around the table in the bottom,
 >>>>>   before and after the headings - some are closer to the previous
 >>>>>   paragraphs than to the next ones.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>   the image boxes are positioned in a way that it is visually not clear
 >>>>>   that they belong to the regarding sections. (they are wrongly
 >>>>> aligned, at least in firefox)
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * improve legibility of copy. split into several paragraphs and maybe
 >>>>>   use lists.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>   rationale: increase readability and scan-ability of text.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/after/data

 >>>>>
 >>>>> * reorder page structure for better understanding of the page.
 >>>>>   split Frank Zappa and Thelonius Mank (nice selection, BTW!) into
 >>>>>   separate sections.
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * increase whitespace, do not use nested lists inline but make them
 >>>>> real nested lists (in the T&C section)
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/after/form

 >>>>>
 >>>>> * link logo to the home
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * link the teaser images in a consistent manner (compared to home)
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * reconsider LEGEND elements' length
 >>>>>   rationale: screenreaders will read the legend with every label in the
 >>>>>   fieldset. is might be annoying.
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * consider using a visually more unobstrusive but still accessible
 >>>>>   technique.
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * consider increasing size of comment-box
 >>>>>   use a textarea for "other reason"?
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * reconsider text and form of "Rank your favourite forms of
 >>>>>   transportation" in section 2.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>   - i'm not a native speaker, but i think a ranking should bring those
 >>>>>     items in an order?
 >>>>>
 >>>>>   - consider using a different form than drop-downs, maybe radiobuttons
 >>>>>     as they are generally easier to use (single click)?
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * ??? aren't numbers (1,2,3) generally easier to read and understand
 >>>>>   than the words (one, two, three). maybe this is only true for bigger
 >>>>>   numbers.
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * increase and visually emphasize the submit button.
 >>>>>   i generally have the feeling the a reset button is useless in 99% of
 >>>>>   the cases and every useless element should be dropped(TM).
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * Footer: provide a TITLE for KEIO to indicate what this might be. it's
 >>>>>   not that famous among ordinary users ;-)
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>> gerneral comments on the presentation of BAD:
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * make a tab-interface for good and bad (would be easier to understand
 >>>>>   and to handle)
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * make a slideshow-like before & next page navigation
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * make major barriers & improvements toggle-able (whats the right
 >>>>>   word?): maybe those comments could be positioned in lightboxes in the
 >>>>>   margin?
 >>>>>
 >>>>> * crosslink barrieres to WCAG and maybe to our comparative analysis
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>> i hope that helps for the first,
 >>>>> regards, michael
 >
 >
 >
 
 --
 Shadi Abou-Zahra - http://www.w3.org/People/shadi/ |
    WAI International Program Office Activity Lead   |
   W3C Evaluation & Repair Tools Working Group Chair |

Received on Tuesday, 28 October 2008 08:27:30 UTC