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Re: Ian Jacobs comments [Was: New draft - please review]

From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:31:04 -0600
Cc: "Stephen Zilles" <szilles@adobe.com>, "public-w3process@w3.org" <public-w3process@w3.org>
Message-Id: <AC81406E-387B-48EF-9967-23B20AC61368@w3.org>
To: "Charles McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>

On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:28 AM, "Charles McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru> wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 15:55:23 +0100, Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 12:37 AM, Stephen Zilles <szilles@adobe.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Ian,
>>> The text was added in Chapter 7 because it is not in the chapter in which charters are discussed
>> 
>> Here is what 6.2.6 says [1]:
>> 
> ...
>> It is clear that in order for Chapter 7 to be published, the entire Process Document will need to be republished. Therefore, rather than put a requirement on charters in section 7, if the above does not suffice, let's just leave an open issue on 6.2.6 to be resolved when the document as a whole is republished.
> 
> As I understood the request from W3C, despite having had several redrafts of the entire document, it was to publish a new version, as far as practicable with changes *only* to chapter 7.
> 
> Which I thought at the time was a bit silly since there are a few more things we could have usefully done, IMHO without getting in the way.
> 
> But the Director decides what W3C publishes, so I worked on the assumption that what I had been told was the path to getting the work done without administrative bickering.
> 
> In this CG which has a scope greater than the process task force you are most welcome to raise an issue - just choose the product accordingly please.

I had assumed that if we were to publish a new chapter 7 we would need to publish an entire document. 

It is not clear to me what the AB's expectations are for changes to other parts of the document when 7 will be republished. Perhaps the AB knows, or should review at their upcoming FTF meeting.

Ian

> 
> cheers
> 
> Chaals
> 
>> Ian
>> 
>> 
>> [1] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/groups.html#WGCharter
>> 
>> 
>>> and we agreed to limit our changes to Chapter 7 in this iteration. Were this not the case we could indeed drop the text you are concerned about, but it must stay given our limitation.
>>> 
>>> Steve Z
>>> 
>>> Sent from my Motorola ATRIX™ 4G on AT&T
>>> 
>>> -----Original message-----
>>> From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
>>> To: Stephen Zilles <szilles@adobe.com>
>>> Cc: "chaals@yandex-team.ru" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>, "public-w3process@w3.org" <public-w3process@w3.org>
>>> Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 15:43:24 GMT+00:00
>>> Subject: Re: Ian Jacobs comments [Was: New draft - please review]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 15, 2014, at 9:36 AM, Stephen Zilles <szilles@adobe.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Ian,
>>> > The intent of the text in 7.1 is to specifically allow WGs to add extra process in their charter. This authorization should be in the chapter that deals with charters but cannot in this revision because we agreed to limit our updates to chapter 7. That is why the text Charles added is important as written. The intent is not,  "details can be found elsewhere".
>>> 
>>> I'd be happy simply dropping the sentence then, if it's stated elsewhere in the process. Or something like:
>>> "See section X for information about additional chartered processes."
>>> 
>>> Ian
>>> 
>>> >
>>> > On rereading 7.2.4, I see the point you are making and I have no strong opinion on the choice between "can" and "will".
>>> >
>>> > Apologizing because I only seem to be able to do top posts on my phone email client,
>>> >
>>> > Steve Z
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my Motorola ATRIX™ 4G on AT&T
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original message-----
>>> > From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
>>> > To: Stephen Zilles <szilles@adobe.com>
>>> > Cc: "chaals@yandex-team.ru" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>, "public-w3process@w3.org" <public-w3process@w3.org>
>>> > Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 00:27:07 GMT+00:00
>>> > Subject: Re: Ian Jacobs comments [Was: New draft - please review]
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Feb 14, 2014, at 6:16 PM, Stephen Zilles <szilles@adobe.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Ian,
>>> > > The text proposed  for 7.1 implements the text that closed a prior issue (83) and the changes you suggest would reopen that issue w/o adding anything.
>>> >
>>> > I believe the intent of the text is to say something like "For details about how this gets done in practice, see the charter." But when I read "additional" I don't hear "details" I hear "stuff that is at the same level as what is in this document." I'm trying to convey "details can be found elsewhere."
>>> >
>>> > > My reading of 7.2.4 is a requirement not "feasibility".
>>> >
>>> > I continue to believe the limit of our endeavor is enabling, not producing actual implementations.
>>> >
>>> > Ian
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > Fir 7.4.1 I had suggested a different set of changes in an earlier message; e.g., use "Revising a CR" rather than "Revised CR" to avoid the apparent creation of a new state.
>>> > > Steve Z
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Motorola ATRIX™ 4G on AT&T
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > -----Original message-----
>>> > > From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
>>> > > To: Charles McCathie Nevile <chaals@yandex-team.ru>
>>> > > Cc: "public-w3process@w3.org" <public-w3process@w3.org>
>>> > > Sent: Fri, Feb 14, 2014 21:27:20 GMT+00:00
>>> > > Subject: Re: Ian Jacobs comments [Was: New draft - please review]
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Feb 14, 2014, at 3:00 PM, "Charles McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > With one exception, I have addressed all these comments (and the exception I expect to address later tonight).
>>> > >
>>> > > Thanks, Charles. Notes inline.
>>> > >
>>> > > Ian
>>> > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >> - 7.1: "Individual Working Groups and Interest Groups may adopt
>>> > > >>  additional processes for developing publications, so long as they do
>>> > > >>  not conflict with the requirements in this chapter."
>>> > > >>
>>> > > >>  Proposed editorial change: "Different Working Groups and Interest
>>> > > >>  Groups typically evolve different internal processes for developing
>>> > > >>  documents. Such processes MUST NOT conflict with the requirements in
>>> > > >>  this chapter."
>>> > > >>
>>> > > >>  I think the word "Additional" does not quite capture what I think
>>> > > >>  you are referring to: operational details (which may very by group).
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Other processes are in addition to the base requirements of the process which cannot be broken. I had't used MUST because this chapter doesn't cover charters and working groups - that's a different part of Process that was ruled out of scope for this round of updates.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I therefore oppose this change. Feel free to raise an issue.
>>> > >
>>> > > I understand your point and agree the requirement should not appear in this section. Counter proposal:
>>> > >
>>> > >      "Different Working Groups and Interest  Groups typically evolve different internal processes for developing
>>> > >      documents; these complement but do not override the requirements in this chapter."
>>> > >
>>> > >     (or, "these augment but do not override")
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > >> - 7.2.4:
>>> > > >> 1) "to ensure that independent interoperable implementations of each
>>> > > >>  feature of the specification will be realized." Suggest s/will/can/
>>> > > >
>>> > > > That is a significant change that I oppose. The point is not that it is possible to make interoperability, but that the specification is sufficiently clear that this is what *will* happen.
>>> > >
>>> > > I don't object to "will," but I think "can" reflects the "feasibility" goal better than will here.
>>> > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > > This is part of the rationale for saying "2 interoperable implementations" is a rule of thumb that suggests we're on the right track, not a statement of what the world is actually looking for in a standard, and therefore providing 7.2.4 instead of that rough rule.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > >> - 7.4.1: Suggest deleting this section and simply incorporating
>>> > > >>  what's needed in 7.4.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I disagree. This section was added because nobody could work out what was required (because it is unclear)
>> 
>> --
>> Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>      http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
>> Tel:                       +1 718 260 9447
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Charles McCathie Nevile - Consultant (web standards) CTO Office, Yandex
>      chaals@yandex-team.ru         Find more at http://yandex.com
> 

--
Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>      http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
Tel:                       +1 718 260 9447
Received on Monday, 17 February 2014 17:31:10 UTC

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