W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-vocabs@w3.org > May 2013

Re: Proposal: Promote 'citation' property up to CreativeWork

From: Maori Ito <maori@nibio.go.jp>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 13:19:31 +0900
Message-ID: <51A2DED3.6030306@nibio.go.jp>
To: kcoyle@kcoyle.net
CC: "public-vocabs@w3.org" <public-vocabs@w3.org>
Karen,

I'm sorry for late reply.
If there are neither ID system nor URL, we have to mark up each property.
(author, title, datePublished…)
If there are some pages in wikipedia or DBpedia, using these URL would be alternative.

I'm sorry I misunderstood about "Ibid".
Though I could mark up with itemid and itemref, it became complex.
(I bobtailed reference property into referenceinfo for the sake of ease.)

==============================
<div itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle">
"Printing spread quickly after <span itemid="page1" itemscope><p itemprop="citation"> (Gutenberg 1)</p></span>."
"As Eisenstein explains <span itemid="page2" itemscope><p itemprop="citation">(2)</p></span>,..."
</div>

<div itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle">
  <span id= "ref1" itemprop="referenceinfo">
   Eisenstein, Elizabeth L. The Printing Press As an Agent of Change: Communications and Cultural Transformations in Early Mod
     <span itemid="page1" itemscope  itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle" itemref="ref1"><p  itemprop="pages" >135 </p></span>
   </span>
2) Ibid, p. <span itemid="page2" itemscope  itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle" itemref="ref1"><p  itemprop="pages" >149 </p></span>

</div>
==============================

In case of microdata, one of the important thing is to show results in cross search.
It depends on what you want to get search results.
This is my image. How about you?

http://gyazo.com/52b38b6b677a78108c288b02aa3d6ab7.png

If you want to get  roughly reference list, you don't have to mark up strictly.
(In Ibid case, only (1) can be shown in the results.)
If you want to distinguish between them, we have to consider.

There are many ways to make linked data, so  when we want to write complex relationships between data, we don't have to stick around microdata.

If you have any idea, please let me know.

maori





(13/05/24 22:36), Karen Coyle wrote:
>
>
> On Fri May 24 01:31:42 2013, Maori Ito wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>> If there is no ID, URL would be minimum.
>
> Many cited items are not available online, they are in hardcopy. They also often either do not have identifiers, or any identifiers (e.g. ISBN) are not part of the citation/reference style. Here's a book that gets cited frequently in the area of the history of the book, in a typical reference format:
>
> Eisenstein, Elizabeth L. The Printing Press As an Agent of Change: Communications and Cultural Transformations in Early Modern Europe. Cambridge [Eng.: Cambridge University Press, 1979.
>
> Here's how the document would look:
>
> ******
>
> "Printing spread quickly after Gutenberg (1)."
> "As Eisenstein explains (2),..."
>
> ...
>
> (1) Eisenstein, Elizabeth L. The Printing Press As an Agent of Change: Communications and Cultural Transformations in Early Modern Europe. Cambridge [Eng.: Cambridge University Press, 1979. p, 49
> (2) Ibid, p. 149
>
> ************
>
> It seems to me that the original "citation" property would probably treat these as:
>
> (1) <citation>Eisenstein, Elizabeth L. The Printing Press As an Agent of Change: Communications and Cultural Transformations in Early Modern Europe. Cambridge [Eng.: Cambridge University Press, 1979. p. 49</citation>
> (2)<citation>Ibid, p. 149</citation>
>
> There have been attempts to parse references like (1) into separate entities (author, title, etc.) but the ones that I have seen are not terribly reliable. The "citation", as I show it here, is simply a reference number, usually just a super-script.
>
> I think that this is a fairly typical example of existing cited material, and one that we need to accommodate. Even in the near future we have to accept that many authors will follow the text-based citation rules, which do not include mark-up of individual properties.
>
> kc
>
>>
>> Here is the examples.
>>
>> 1.entryID (allow http)
>>
>> <ul itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle">
>> <li>
>> David Pilgrim, "The Mammy Caricature," Jim Crow Museum of Racist
>> Memorabilia,
>> http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/mammies/, under "Commercial
>> Mammies."
>> <meta itemprop="entryID"
>> content="http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/mammies/">
>> </li>
>> </ul>
>>
>> 2.url
>> <ul itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle">
>> <li>
>> David Pilgrim, "The Mammy Caricature," Jim Crow Museum of Racist
>> Memorabilia,
>> <a itemprop="url"
>> href="http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/mammies/">http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/mammies/</a>,
>> under "Commercial Mammies."
>> </li>
>> </ul>
>>
>>
>>>> 2.Difference between 'citation' and 'reference'
>>>  > 3.Take advantage of itemid
>>>
>>> I think we need to look at some other citation styles. The example
>>> you show at kanzaki.com uses this style:
>>>
>>>    [Sereno 1991]
>>>
>>> and that links to the full citation.
>>>
>>> Some document styles use a superscript number, and that can link to a
>>> partial citation:
>>>
>>>      7. Ibid., 39 - 43.
>>>
>>
>> In this case, how about this mark-up?
>>
>> [Preview]
>>
>> "Coming to better terms with nationalism calls for Perry Anderson's
>> more...." (Narin 1997., 17) ,
>> he also says that "It maybe true that modernisation-industrialisation
>> could probably have unfolded across ....." (Ibid., 39 - 43.)
>> ....
>> Tom Nairn, Faces of Nationalism: Janus Revisited (London and New York:
>> Verso, 1997),
>> 6. Tom Nairn, Faces of Nationalism: Janus Revisited (London and New
>> York: Verso, 1997), 17.
>>
>> [html]
>> <div itemscope="" itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle">
>> <span itemprop="citeText">
>> "Coming to better terms with nationalism calls for Perry Anderson's
>> more...."
>> <cite itemprop="reference" itemscope=""
>> itemid="isbn:1859841945">(Narin 1997., 17)</cite>
>> </span>, he also says that
>> <span itemprop="citeText">
>>  "It maybe true that modernisation-industrialisation could probably
>> have unfolded across ....."
>> <cite itemprop="reference" itemscope=""
>> itemid="isbn:1859841945">(Ibid., 39 - 43.)</cite>
>> </span>
>> </div>
>> ....
>> <div itemscope="" itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle"
>> itemid="isbn:1859841945">
>> <span itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>>       <span itemprop="givenName">Tom</span> <span
>> itemprop="familyname">Nairn</span>,
>>    </span>
>> <span itemprop="title">Faces of Nationalism: Janus Revisited</span>
>> (London and New York: Verso,
>> <span itemprop="datePublished">1997</span>),
>> </div>
>>
>>
>>
>> If the developers use ibid, it would be shown the detail in the other
>> part.
>> We can use itemid for the reference (book or article).
>> If it were not shown the detail, I recommend to use entryID property.
>>
>>
>> Maori
>>
>> (13/05/24 1:16), Karen Coyle wrote:
>>> Maori,
>>>
>>> Thank you for such a complete analysis of this.
>>>
>>> On 5/22/13 8:16 PM, Maori Ito wrote:
>>>> Karen, Mizuki (Morita) and all,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your mail and I'm sorry for late reply.
>>>>
>>>> I really struggled which choice is better to mark up.
>>>> I'd like to discuss:
>>>>
>>>> 1.Strongly recommend using ID.
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that IDs should be used where available. IDs exist only for
>>> some articles and books, however. Article IDs have been in use only
>>> for a short while, and are more common in the sciences than in other
>>> fields. Can you do an example where there is no ID?
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2.Difference between 'citation' and 'reference'
>>>  > 3.Take advantage of itemid
>>>
>>> I think we need to look at some other citation styles. The example
>>> you show at kanzaki.com uses this style:
>>>
>>>    [Sereno 1991]
>>>
>>> and that links to the full citation.
>>>
>>> Some document styles use a superscript number, and that can link to a
>>> partial citation:
>>>
>>>      7. Ibid., 39 - 43.
>>>
>>> This style will be harder to present in microdata. But we should try
>>> to code some different citation styles before making decisions here.
>>>
>>> Here are some links to different styles:
>>>
>>> http://library.williams.edu/citing/styles/chicago1.php
>>> http://bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/resdoc5e/RES5e_ch09_o.html
>>> http://www.press.uchicago.edu/books/turabian/turabian_citationguide.html
>>> http://wiki.lexisnexis.com/academic/index.php?title=Legal_Citation_Formats
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> kc
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1. Strongly recommend using ID.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to quote publication and if you want to finish it in 3
>>>> minutes, do you want to use microdata?
>>>> What a mess!
>>>> I'd like to say, "No fuss, no mess!"
>>>> So I strongly recommend using ID.
>>>> There are many who are interested in fun (and/or) benefit.
>>>> I'd like to say it's easy and you can feel benefit by using microdata.
>>>>
>>>> The method that I would recommend you is using entryID.
>>>> Minimal mark up is using ID "certainly".
>>>> If the contents have not ID, please use URL.
>>>> If the web developers have a understanding, recommend to use the other
>>>> properties.
>>>> If you are busy or beginners, only using ID.
>>>> I hope many people use microdata with citation or reference.
>>>> Don't you think that this way would make many metadata?
>>>>
>>>> Here is the example.
>>>>
>>>> <ul itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle">
>>>> <li>
>>>> Sereno PD (1991) Basal archosaurs: phylogenetic relationships and
>>>> functional implications Society of Vertebrate Paleontology
>>>> <meta itemprop="entryID"
>>>> content="doi:10.2307/3889336">10.2307/3889336</meta>
>>>> </li>
>>>> <li>
>>>> Langer MC (2004) The Dinosauria
>>>> <meta itemprop="entryID"
>>>> content="isbn13:9780520242098">9780520242098</meta>
>>>> </li>
>>>> <li>
>>>> Morita M (2012) Sagace: a web-based search engine for biomedical
>>>> databases in Japan
>>>> <meta itemprop='entryID' content='pmid:23110816'>23110816</meta>
>>>> </li>
>>>> </ul>
>>>>
>>>> Simple!
>>>>
>>>> I made a useful tool to make publication list with microdata.
>>>> http://sagace.nibio.go.jp/publication/proposal.html
>>>>
>>>> If you enter pubmed id, this tool will make publication list with
>>>> microdata tag.
>>>> Beginners might feel confuse complicate codes.
>>>> How about using ID is minimum?
>>>>
>>>> 2.Difference between 'citation' and 'reference'
>>>>
>>>> I'm Japanese so I'm not sure the rigid distinction.
>>>> However when I read the following links by Mizuki (Morita),
>>>> I felt it had better to distinguish between them.
>>>>
>>>> http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/help/guidespublications/bib_cit/
>>>>
>>>> http://drdianehamilton.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/what-is-the-difference-between-a-citation-and-a-reference/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In case of developers quote text, promote to use 'citation' property
>>>> and
>>>> in case of developers want to make references (list),
>>>> promote to use 'reference' property.
>>>>
>>>> Example markup image of mine is the same as Mizuki (Morita).
>>>>
>>>> 3.Take advantage of itemid
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to know what do you think about microdata as a graph?
>>>> If microdata can be a graph, what is the node? Page or Data?
>>>> If we think data as a node, I recommend to use itemid.
>>>>
>>>> I read several pages about external enumerations and its discussions.
>>>> I really struggled about them and talk about it Masahide Kanzaki.
>>>> He suggested me links as shown below.
>>>> If you mark up like this, you can treat a reference as a data and it
>>>> will become clear
>>>> the relationships between citation and reference.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.kanzaki.com/works/2013/misc/0518-citation.html
>>>>
>>>> When I think about Linked data deeply, it will become useful mark up.
>>>> We can connect references as individual data with meanings in many
>>>> pages.
>>>> However the mark up is a bit complicated.
>>>>
>>>> If the developers can mark up finely, I think we had better to use
>>>> itemid too.
>>>> I wonder why itemid had to declare with itemtype.
>>>>
>>>> We have to think about how to encourage the developers to apply
>>>> microdata.
>>>> At the same time, we have to have a perspective of using data
>>>> effectively.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think about these?
>>>>
>>>> #I'm sad that I couldn't get reply about BiologicalDatabaseEntry and
>>>> BiologicalDatabase proposals.
>>>> How to officially join these proposals to schema.org?
>>>>
>>>> #I'm not good at English, if you ok, please reply easily understandable
>>>> English.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maori
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (13/05/16 0:16), Karen Coyle wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/14/13 10:50 PM, MORITA Mizuki wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen has pointed out the difference between a citation and a
>>>>>> reference. Is it right?
>>>>>
>>>>> Morita - that's an interesting distinction, but I believe that
>>>>> schema.org/citation does not make this distinction, and unfortunately
>>>>> doesn't include an example that would clarify this. In its definition
>>>>> it appears to be closer to what you refer to as a "reference":
>>>>>
>>>>> citation     CreativeWork or Text     A citation or reference to
>>>>> another creative work, such as another publication, web page,
>>>>> scholarly article, etc. NOTE: Candidate for promotion to
>>>>> ScholarlyArticle.
>>>>>
>>>>> So it is a work referred to from another work, and there is no further
>>>>> definition. My assumption would be that the intra-text links, such as:
>>>>>
>>>>> [2]
>>>>> (Smith, 2013)
>>>>>
>>>>> would not be terribly useful for markup. Instead,markup would be given
>>>>> to the text that is presumably sufficient to actually identify the
>>>>> thing being cited. This could be a simple string (as most cited works
>>>>> are today):
>>>>>
>>>>> <span itemprop="citation">Matthews, Joe. "The Value of Information in
>>>>> Library Catalogs." Information Outlook (July, 2000) 18-24.
>>>>> </span>
>>>>>
>>>>> The other option is that the citation could be coded as a
>>>>> schema/CreativeWork. This would approximate your "reference", below,
>>>>> using "citation" instead of "reference" as its itemprop.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm afraid that regular English usage doesn't have a clear separation
>>>>> between "citation" and "reference": "He cited the article" "There is a
>>>>> citation for the article" "This book has a reference to the article"
>>>>> -- it perhaps should be more clear, but it isn't. (As is the case for
>>>>> so much of English usage -- sorry about that!)
>>>>>
>>>>> kc
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've quickly tried to modify the example on the ‘Citation’ Wiki page.
>>>>>> Please discard it if it doesn't make sense. It's just a quick thought
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ==============================
>>>>>> <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle">
>>>>>>    <p itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle">
>>>>>>      In each of the successively more derived clades Ornithodira,
>>>>>> Dinosauria, and Saurischia, the primitive state was an increasingly
>>>>>> long neck (<a itemprop="citation" href="#ref-1">Sereno, 1991a</a>; <a
>>>>>> itemprop="citation" href="#ref-2">Langer, 2004</a>).
>>>>>>    </p>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    <ul id="references">
>>>>>>      <li itemprop="reference" itemscope
>>>>>> itemtype="http://schema.org/ScholarlyArticle" id="ref-1">
>>>>>>        <span itemprop="author" itemscope
>>>>>> itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>>>>>>          <span itemprop="familyName">Sereno</span> PD
>>>>>>        </span>
>>>>>>        (<span itemprop="datePublished">1991</span>)
>>>>>>        <cite itemprop="name"><a itemprop="url"
>>>>>> href="http://dx.doi.org/10.2307/3889336">Basal archosaurs:
>>>>>> phylogenetic relationships and functional implications</a></cite>
>>>>>>        <span>
>>>>>>          <cite class="source">Society of Vertebrate Paleontology
>>>>>> Memoir</cite> <span class="volume">2</span>:<span
>>>>>> class="fpage">1</span>
>>>>>>        </span>
>>>>>>        <meta itemprop="referenceID"
>>>>>> content="doi:10.2307/3889336">10.2307/3889336</meta>
>>>>>>      </li>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      <li itemprop="reference" itemscope
>>>>>> itemtype="http://schema.org/Book" id="ref-2">
>>>>>>        <span itemprop="author" itemscope
>>>>>> itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>>>>>>          <span itemprop="familyName">Langer</span> MC
>>>>>>        </span>
>>>>>>        (<span itemprop="datePublished">2004</span>)
>>>>>>        <cite itemprop="name"><a itemprop="url"
>>>>>> href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?vid=ISBN9780520242098">The
>>>>>> Dinosauria</a></cite>
>>>>>>        <meta itemprop="referenceID"
>>>>>> content="isbn13:9780520242098">9780520242098</meta>
>>>>>>      </li>
>>>>>>    </ul>
>>>>>> </article>
>>>>>> ==============================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Mizuki
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Karen Coyle
> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
> ph: 1-510-540-7596
> m: 1-510-435-8234
> skype: kcoylenet
>


-- 
-- :-);-)
Maori Ito
Email : maori@nibio.go.jp
National Institute of Biomedical Innovation (NIBIO)
Bioinformatics Project : http://mizuguchilab.org/
Sagace : http://sagace.nibio.go.jp
Received on Monday, 27 May 2013 04:21:15 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 21:29:27 UTC