Fwd: [MINUTES] W3C CCG CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2023-05-15

Hello all,

The video for yesterday’s call can be watched here: https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-education-2023-05-15.mp4 <https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-education-2023-05-15.mp4>

Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1IBLoYlVFaVdEdeJeCeat6Q8fSLBGssssALPjzSlZFjs/edit#slide=id.g24477da48fe_0_35 <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1IBLoYlVFaVdEdeJeCeat6Q8fSLBGssssALPjzSlZFjs/edit#slide=id.g24477da48fe_0_35>

The link to register for Plugfest 3: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfjjrKsHmLW3BoVSVvFjp5CydEgY_FoAGjWcq7zUUDbBvq2CA/viewform <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfjjrKsHmLW3BoVSVvFjp5CydEgY_FoAGjWcq7zUUDbBvq2CA/viewform>

Please join us at the CCG call on 5/30 for more.

Thanks,

Kerri

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
> Subject: [MINUTES] W3C CCG CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2023-05-15
> Date: May 16, 2023 at 11:02:19 AM EDT
> To: public-credentials@w3.org
> Resent-From: public-credentials@w3.org
> 
> Thanks to Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!
> 
> The transcript for the call is now available here:
> 
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-05-15-vc-education/
> 
> Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
> Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:
> 
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-05-15-vc-education/audio.ogg
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2023-05-15
> 
> Agenda:
>  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/2023May/0006.html
> Topics:
>  1. IP Note
>  2. Call Notes
>  3. Introductions & Reintroductions
>  4. Announcements & Reminders
>  5. Plugfest 3
> Organizer:
>  Kerri Lemoie
> Scribe:
>  Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords
> Present:
>  Kerri Lemoie, Simone Ravaoli, Maarten Boender, Jim Goodell, Danny 
>  Done, Heather Carle, Sharon Leu, Mike Schwartz, Chris Webber, 
>  Kristin Delwo, Ian Davidson, Joey, Andy Griebel, Mahesh Balan - 
>  pocketcred.com, Joshua Marks, Viktor (ProofSpace), Niels Klomp, 
>  Lucy Yang, Susan Stroud, PL/T3-ASU, TimG, Manu Sporny, Torsten 
>  Lodderstedt, Dmitri Zagidulin, David Ward, Sergey (Sphereon), 
>  Geun-Hyung, Deb Everhart, Naomi, Jeff O - HumanOS, Nis Jespersen 
>  , Zach Pendleton, Kayode Ezike, Kaliya Young, David Chadwick, 
>  Jake dibattista, Chandi Cumaranatunge, Kimberly Linson, Marty 
>  Reed, David Mason, Don Presant, Keith Hackett, Andrew Rourke, 
>  Stuart Freeman, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) 
>  (OpenLinkSw.com), Colin Reynolds, Ed Design Lab, Phil Barker, 
>  Torsten, Marianna Milkis, ASU Pocket, Ganesh Annan, Nate Otto, 
>  Eric Sembrat, Geun-Hyung Kim, Ioram Sette, Brian, Zack, Sam 
>  Smith, Tracy Korsmo
> 
> <kerri_lemoie> Hello Everyone!
> Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Give me one second here I see the transcriber 
>  working but I don't see the recorder working going to stop it and 
>  start it again moment.
> Kerri Lemoie:  How can we try that one more time.
> 
> Topic: IP Note
> 
> <manu_sporny> You might need to invite the Transcriber back in by 
>  turning on "CC"
> 
> Topic: Call Notes
> 
> Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions
> 
> Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Now there it is thank you appreciate that money.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Hey anybody here in the qualitative quite a few 
>  people 43 people that's a great call and a great number of people 
>  anybody here is knew it would like to introduce themselves.
> 
> Topic: Announcements & Reminders
> 
> Kerri Lemoie:  And then lastly before we get to the main topic 
>  see if anybody has any announcements or reminders I only have one 
>  for you which is that on May 29th I believe is a holiday in the 
>  states and so we won't have a call here so next Monday we will 
>  have a call we're working on that agenda currently but the Monday 
>  after.
> Kerri Lemoie:   Is a Holiday.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Morgan how you doing.
> Chris Webber:  There I just wanted to say that coming up in the 
>  verifiable credentials working group we're working on a bunch of 
>  test Suites including adapting the test Suites we used for the 
>  jff plugfest to in that effort so if we worked with you in that 
>  plugfest we'd love to continue working with you and maybe help 
>  integrate you into the news test Suites so you may be hearing 
>  from me or manu in the next couple of weeks.
> Chris Webber:   About that.
> Kerri Lemoie:  That's excellent news thank you Morgan that's 
>  really great.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Okay no other announcements or reminders in the 
>  queue it seems I also feel free to hear yourselves anytime in the 
>  call if you want to jump in and you know say hello and tell us 
>  things that come to mind during the call Sharon may I introduce 
>  you now is a is our main topic for today to kick us off with 
>  plugfest 3.
> 
> Topic: Plugfest 3
> 
> Sharon Leu:  Yes I just want to do a quick can everyone hear me 
>  check.
> Sharon Leu:  Oh good okay cool and I'm also going to try to share 
>  my screen because someone made me very pretty slide so.
> Sharon Leu: 
>  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1IBLoYlVFaVdEdeJeCeat6Q8fSLBGssssALPjzSlZFjs/edit?usp=sharing
> Sharon Leu:  Okay can everyone see my deck okay and I also know I 
>  can drop the deck into the chat in a second as well let's see 
>  let's do that that didn't work okay well yeah.
> Sharon Leu:  Okay so I want to officially kick off plugfest 3 I 
>  know that I sent a message earlier last week so I think some of 
>  you already got the form but I think we want to use our time 
>  today to do a quick overview of the technical requirements the 
>  timeline and then also to talk about a few of the things that we 
>  think that we need to be preparing together as a group in order 
>  to make this successful so just by way of introduction again.
> Sharon Leu:   For people who don't know me which I don't.
> Sharon Leu:  It's called suits always good to do this my name is 
>  Sharon Lou and I work at an organization called jobs for the 
>  future or jmf and we are not actually a technology company in any 
>  way we have as our North Star to work over the next 10 years to 
>  make sure that 75 million people facing systemic barriers to 
>  advancement hadn't have quality jobs and so when we do this we do 
>  this through a number of traditional and non-traditional ways and 
>  at jff Labs we have the opportunity to work with people who are.
> Sharon Leu:   Are innovators to use technology tools and 
>  different.
> Sharon Leu:  Are currently available to us to help us achieve 
>  these goals and so are my team looks at the specific question of 
>  credentials and digital credentials and just in the credential 
>  engine landscape most recently we noticed that there is like it 
>  right they were reported that there were a million credentials 
>  issued by over 60,000 providers in the United States and our 
>  question as we were reading through this and many other similar 
>  studies is how many of the existence of all of these credentials.
> Sharon Leu:   We to socio-economic mobility and do they how can 
>  we create an ecosystem.
> <viktor_(proofspace)> Dont hear anything
> <manu_sporny> I can hear Sharon
> Sharon Leu:  It's are exchanged more fluidly they're used and 
>  ultimately that a multiple set of multiple credentials are earned 
>  by individuals over their course of their lifetime can be added 
>  to a tool so that they can communicate their abilities as they 
>  pursue whatever opportunities whether it's education or 
>  employment and so this is our interest in verifiable credentials 
>  and the use of and their use in allowing people to pursue these 
>  opportunities so as.
> <simone_ravaioli> sounds seems fine, Viktor
> Sharon Leu:   We're doing this like we looked at the.
> https://credentialengine.org/resources/counting-u-s-secondary-and-postsecondary-credentials-report/
> <kerri_lemoie> Sounds seems ok @Viktor - may wish to try a 
>  different browser.
> Sharon Leu:  And we said to ourselves like what do we need to do 
>  in order to make this happen to create the environment so that we 
>  can do some of this testing and so that led us to thinking about 
>  working with this group to create a series of plugfest because 
>  what we noticed is that this ideal that we have which is multiple 
>  credentials over by multiple issuers over a long period of time 
>  and then sharing and recombining really was a description of 
>  making the verifiable credential secret ecosystem work so.
> Sharon Leu:   Just a quick trip down memory lane we did our first 
>  plug test lat.
> <viktor_(proofspace)> I use mobile app, ok will try
> <simone_ravaioli> a writeup on PF1 and 2 - 
>  https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/plugfest-simone-ravaioli/
> Sharon Leu:  A year from now where the exercise was to display 
>  one verifiable credential in the O BB 3 format in the wallet and 
>  then we followed that up with the second one which was about to 
>  verifiable credentials from two different issuers in a wallet or 
>  issuers issuing two different wallets so I think we had taken the 
>  first step in creating a collection that individuals can use and 
>  so what we want to do this time is we want to increase it we want 
>  to focus on presentation request and.
> <kerri_lemoie> Plugfest 1: 
>  https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed/plugfest-1-2022/
> Sharon Leu:  I'm just going to very quickly go through the 
>  technical requirements and then we're going to discuss all three 
>  of them and hopefully I think this is where Carrie and Dimitri 
>  and Simona can also jump in but essentially what we're saying is 
>  the what we're going to specifically again focus on wall it's 
>  just like the first podcast and we're going to say that in order 
>  for you that you know sort of pass this bug past what you'll need 
>  to do is the wallet needs to receive our request for credentials 
>  it will allow the user to respond by selecting.
> Sharon Leu:   The credentials that they would like to share and 
>  then they will be presented to the verifier in the form of.
> Sharon Leu:  Terrified will preach.
> <kerri_lemoie> Plugfest 2: 
>  https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed/plugfest-2-2022/
> Sharon Leu:  Efficient so what does that mean so I think I'll I 
>  picked like three of what I thought were the big questions and 
>  then this is where I think people can jump in with their their 
>  own actual questions so we're going to generate the presentation 
>  request through a playground tool the second thing that I wanted 
>  to say is that the first plugfest we did one credential the 
>  second we did too so this time obviously have to do three we're 
>  going to require to credentials one is the jff plugfest badge 
>  that.
> Sharon Leu:   That will be in the open badge version 3 vert.
> <kerri_lemoie> Open Badges 3.0: 
>  https://1edtech.github.io/openbadges-specification/ob_v3p0.html
> Sharon Leu:  Format just like last time and we're also going to 
>  use a uscis.gov identity document I know that several people on 
>  this call I have already had some experience using that 
>  credential document but I think that will share additional 
>  information about that moving forward essentially USCIS is the 
>  United States Customs and immigration service and this allows us 
>  to create a really interesting use case that is both 
>  socio-economic Mobility as well as maybe like a.
> Sharon Leu:   Physical Mobility use case the USCIS documents 
>  especially the.
> Sharon Leu:  Employment authorization documents as well as any 
>  sort of documents related to legal status in the United States 
>  are necessary components of finding a job in the United States in 
>  addition to the academic credential so we think this is an 
>  interesting combination and the third thing that I want to say is 
>  just put out there is that we are going to as a how did you how 
>  do you demonstrate that you did this is to verify the 
>  authenticity of the verifiable proof.
> Sharon Leu:   Asia including the.
> Sharon Leu:  We're not going to require did off protocol 
>  specifically as well as the individual be seized and credential 
>  status check so I'm going to stop right there just for general 
>  questions unless you want me to just plow through and then we'll 
>  take questions all at the end.
> Kerri Lemoie:  There are new questions yet so I hope you go 
>  ahead.
> Sharon Leu:  Okay I'm going to plow through okay so.
> <manu_sporny> Plough through... so far so good. :)
> Kerri Lemoie:  Late one question let me call a Neil's here you 
>  just put himself in Like You on the floor go ahead Nails that's 
>  okay.
> <pl/t3-asu> please repeat the question?
> <pl/t3-asu> :-)
> Sharon Leu:  That's a great question I think that I'm not going 
>  to I don't want to put anyone on the spot but I think that the 
>  playground tool that we use last time okay so yes I will repeat 
>  the question the question is what is the playground tool the 
>  playground tool is going to be the chappie playground and we also 
>  think but.
> Sharon Leu:  The same or all right over to you.
> <pl/t3-asu> mute Dmitri
> Kerri Lemoie:  Yep we got you.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yep can you hear me okay audio trouble okay 
>  great.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Right so as as you remember from the previous 
>  plugfest when we were testing issuing protocols the community is 
>  currently United around three different protocol camps the w3c VC 
>  API protocol that often Works through the credential Handler API 
>  in the browser so that's that's one Camp second one being the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Open up.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Family of protocols and the third one being 
>  did come to so here for testing this verification and 
>  presentation exchange we were hoping to follow similar model and 
>  invite each protocol Camp to put forward a playground tool so we 
>  have the chappie playground tool that allows allows for.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Weston credentials.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Courage while it implementers to to go through 
>  that that's what we'll be testing through in the plugfest three 
>  so that's one we know that the open ID Community has a playground 
>  I think put forth by David Chadwick and and others from last time 
>  so we would like to invite the open to the community to pick that 
>  tool or something else in its place and then.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   I similarly did come too.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I mean it.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  If we're going to have participants to put 
>  forth a similar playground to which I vaguely remember being 
>  presented this past I had W some weeks ago so hopefully that.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Right so the playground tool will serve as the 
>  verifier is the idea so the verifier will ask the wallet for 
>  credentials.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And and then verify the status.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I'm here I would I would hand off that 
>  question to Sharon.
> <kerri_lemoie> Will call on DavidC next
> Sharon Leu:  Yeah sorry I think that you're correct but we need 
>  to control the variables and so you can't like we're trying to 
>  narrow down the scope so that we focus on the specific thing that 
>  we're trying to accomplish and I think that I mean unless okay 
>  this was just an attempt to reduce the complexity because I think 
>  that one of the things that you'll notice is that there are three 
>  different credential types this time as well so you know.
> Sharon Leu:  I don't know if that addresses it but this was just 
>  our attempt to reduce complexity but if you want to do it in a 
>  more complex way I think that we can be open to a conversation.
> <kim_duffy> That's where we're expecting ya'll to hash it out
> <dmitri_zagidulin> so, one way to think of it is, we're proposing 
>  that Plugfest 3 is focusing on demonstrating interop among 
>  /wallets/, for presentation exchange
> <dmitri_zagidulin> rather than verifiers/RPs
> Kerri Lemoie:  Nails and then we have a queue building up these 
>  are excellent questions I'm going to no no you're good you're 
>  good thank you let me let me get to the key I'm going to jump the 
>  queue myself more like right now but then I'm going to call it 
>  David because he was next only to say that you can think of this 
>  plug fast as the iteration right of the first two so it is 
>  assumed that these the wallets are now ready to accept.
> Kerri Lemoie:   Credentials from issuers using the.
> Kerri Lemoie:  As in the previous plugfest so that this is sort 
>  of The Next Step Right David you are you have the floor Dave.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you David that is good to know we're going 
>  to be having a follow-up call to these of course and we should 
>  reach out and talk more about this so we can make these decisions 
>  going forward thank you.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Get a good Nash you are in the you have the floor 
>  please.
> Ganesh Annan:  Thank you Carrie so for those who don't know me my 
>  name is Ganesh I'm Frontage bizarre and I've been working on the 
>  management and Engineering of this playground tool named the 
>  choppy playground and something that was mentioned earlier that I 
>  need to tweak just a little bit is that though out of the gate 
>  the verifier that is support is just one just as was architected 
>  with the.
> Ganesh Annan:   Sewers in it.
> Ganesh Annan:  I sat there are multiple issuers that same 
>  capability is being built in to the choppy playground so though 
>  we're starting with one the next step that we have to complete is 
>  create a test Suite so people can test their own implementations 
>  of the verifiers so that the interface works properly when 
>  integrated into the tool and then from there it'll open up to 
>  multiple verifiers so that's just the first detail that I wanted 
>  to add the next detail was just kind of being aligned with.
> Ganesh Annan:   With the direction of where plugfest.
> Ganesh Annan:  Weighing right so yes we proved out that were able 
>  to issue different VCS through a variety of issuers but this is 
>  in live just with the v-spec and the various pectin SSI community 
>  of this layered approach of building a solution and first 
>  starting with the foundation and then building that next layer on 
>  top the next layer on top once you have a credential in your 
>  wallet is being able to pull that credential out of the wallet a 
>  lot of times you want to pull the.
> Ganesh Annan:   Credential out and then immediately verify it but 
>  when we can.
> Ganesh Annan:  I can just focus on can we pull this credential 
>  you out of the wallet and can you mix and Max mix and match 
>  different queries and are you able to support the queries from 
>  different relying parties can we get that layer correct and then 
>  we'll move to that verification piece so the choppy playground is 
>  ready to demonstrate the ability to verify credentials using a 
>  variety of very far back ends but if the direction the plugfest 
>  is just to focus on the.
> Ganesh Annan:   Piece that is the presentation request the.
> Ganesh Annan:  So just wanted to put that out there thank you.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you dash appreciate that thorsten you have 
>  the floor.
> Torsten: Thank you how about everybody since the last one is the 
>  open ID Community as much great progress on the topic of testing 
>  so perhaps would be good idea to use the official components test 
>  from the open early foundation for the blacks us going forward 
>  I'm not so I'm not sure why the timeline perhaps you could 
>  elaborate about that but what's being done right now.
> Torsten:  we're open a new Foundation.
> Torsten: It was a compromise of being billed for open up you 
>  fucking piece so I think it's really want to make sure that all 
>  the bullets are in trouble I think that it would be good to use 
>  that that set of test because it's based on the latest open at 
>  e4v p implementers drop to the foundation just approved a couple 
>  of weeks ago.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Quick quick question to you Torsten is the 
>  compliance is the spec that you mentioned the test framework is 
>  it interactive as in is it user attended or just automated.
> Torsten: I think you can do both but I need to check.
> Torsten: I mean the ultimate goal is to have an automatic test 
>  but I guess you could also do it why are you asking.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So just just to get an idea I think the 
>  workflow for the plugfest that Sharon has in mind involves some.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Some user attended flows however I am a huge 
>  fan of compatibility test Suites the existence of it for open and 
>  e4v P is fantastic I definitely definitely think we should work 
>  it into the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The plugfest okay so since since Gary also 
>  just just acknowledge me and I was on the Queue I want to give 
>  some context behind this discussion so picking.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Picking just the right amount of things to 
>  test for a given plugfest is about dancing act right we're trying 
>  to test something that is doable by the community we're trying to 
>  not not to overload implementers but on the other hand we're also 
>  trying to challenge implementers and so that that's why the 
>  proposal on this particular slide we're wondering if this purse.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Hence the right amount of challenge 
>  specifically focusing on the wallets not the verifiers of relying 
>  parties can a wallet one out-of-band provision itself with that 
>  it has the credentials to can it receive a presentation request 
>  for more than one credential and can't can it sign.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Put together the verify with presentation and 
>  sign it and handed back to the verifier so that's that's the bit 
>  that this proposal is focused on so what I'm hearing from others 
>  on this call what I hear people asking is maybe that's too simple 
>  do we want to add also testing verifiers and there the question 
>  is for Sharon for for jff staff and the community might that be 
>  too complicated in the timeline that were.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   We're that we have so that's it over to you 
>  Sharon.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Next on the queue.
> Manu Sporny: +1 Sounds like a good place to start, adding 
>  multiple verifiers is pretty simple wrt. VC Playground.
> Sharon Leu:  That's right so just to clarify the question is 
>  about whether we are going to add more protocols to support and 
>  the answer is no so if you look at the form which is later in I 
>  can flip through here let me just okay so I'll this is the 
>  calendar here's a link to the form to fill out fill out this form 
>  by June 5th at the end of the day for us in Eastern time we'll 
>  try to let you know by the seventh as.
> Sharon Leu:   As well as pick a tie.
> Sharon Leu:  Technical discussion we're going to again hope to do 
>  demo day ahead of iiw which is a little bit earlier this time 
>  than it was last year so unfortunately you have just a little bit 
>  less time but if you look at the questions that were asking what 
>  we're saying is we're still only going to do those three 
>  protocols we cut for a couple of reasons number one is because in 
>  this community those are the three most popular ones but number 2 
>  and more importantly for jmf as an.
> Sharon Leu:   Organization is that in the education use case in 
>  the United States those are the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin: https://forms.gle/EYdZxML7JE3juK9a9
> <dmitri_zagidulin> er sorry wrong form
> Sharon Leu:  I have encountered part of this is because the 
>  verifiable credentials are not as widely used yet but at the 
>  moment those are the three most popular ones in the context of 
>  the u.s. education use case and the ones where we know about 
>  resources that exist so.
> Dmitri Zagidulin: https://forms.gle/Nnc2fsgiyaMHbYkQA
> Kerri Lemoie: :+1:
> Sharon Leu:  It's okay so that's that's why there's three 
>  protocols and that's also why we're going to notify people if we 
>  see people who are using if we see a lot of interest in different 
>  protocols that we have not considered we will do a little bit of 
>  research and let people know if we think that there are resources 
>  available sport that I see Kim in the kids so I can I'll turn it 
>  over to you.
> Geun-Hyung Kim:  Yeah so as many of you know this is the first 
>  time that many of the protocols and Associated data models in you 
>  know what were accomplishing on the exchange side that's the 
>  first time they've really been exercised and interop effort like 
>  this so you know to Sharon's point about controlling the 
>  complexity you know we did not want to expand the scope too much 
>  on the roll.
> Geun-Hyung Kim:   Lying parties.
> <manu_sporny> haha
> Geun-Hyung Kim:  I look what would be ideal is if each Camp I 
>  like the I like the transcriber it says lying parties which is a 
>  good trip transcription but any case what would be ideal is if 
>  there's an existing playground or like one can be made into 
>  something that each Camp kind of agrees on because we are 100% 
>  convinced that there will be different interpretations of the 
>  specifications that are out there and so.
> Geun-Hyung Kim:   This will this.
> <tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> re-lying. 
>  lying again. :-)
> <niels_klomp> Exactly, that is why it would make sense to have 
>  more than 2 "lying" party ;)
> <niels_klomp> parties
> Geun-Hyung Kim:  In itself will be a good forcing function to you 
>  know get some more clarity there now if that doesn't exist say 
>  like an open ID stack then then that's great but we do think that 
>  there will be some confusion over that so you know it is possible 
>  to sort of formally bring in the idea of multiple verifiers but 
>  that might make things too complicated versus each group sort of.
> Geun-Hyung Kim:  A representative one for this plugfest anyways 
>  future plugfest we can get a lot more complicated bring in scope.
> Sharon Leu:  Yeah that's right and I'm going to interrupt for 
>  just a moment I think that is something that I meant to say that 
>  can reminded me is we did do a bunch of research about whether we 
>  can get like one Uber relying party in the wild or one or two to 
>  come and partner with us in this effort but again because jmf is 
>  you know us Workforce education oriented in our ecosystem there's 
>  not a lot of use.
> Sharon Leu:   Image of digital credentials like I said earlier 
>  the.
> Sharon Leu:  Stick is that there are about a million of them in 
>  the wild like like probably like .1 percent of them are actually 
>  used in big decisions they are just Collectibles and so part of 
>  our goal and in some of the other projects that we are engaged in 
>  we are trying to we work with communities of employers and 
>  different decision makers on whether or not they would start 
>  accepting digital Assets in some of the big decisions and we have 
>  found that to be a.
> Sharon Leu:   A highly uneven ecosystem and there are a number 
>  of.
> Sharon Leu:  Have PCC had put out a study as well as Northeastern 
>  University put out a study where they looked at the different 
>  kinds of technologies that are used by potential relying parties 
>  in the US and it's complete it's very uneven and it's very hard 
>  to hit that so the reducing complexity is making this trying to 
>  reduce it from like a many too many too many sort of test to just 
>  saying okay so we know that there are three protocols that are 
>  not completely I mean.
> Sharon Leu:   I think that this discussion about which protocol 
>  is best.
> Sharon Leu:  Technology stack will continue to go on for a little 
>  while and while that is happening you know can you know employers 
>  who are interested in experimenting or other relying parties look 
>  on this and say like well at least if they decide on a particular 
>  approach that they will have some clarity rather than it's a it's 
>  when they look as a relying party into our ecosystem they all see 
>  a lot of chaos so I know that that's ultimately unsatisfying but 
>  I think there are some potential relying parties that are.
> Sharon Leu:   Interested in watching one of them obviously is.
> Sharon Leu:  And I can say like Department of Homeland Security 
>  so they are an issuer but I think we've been having a lot of 
>  really good conversations that are pretty promising about what 
>  does it look like for them to also be relying parties and again 
>  but again I think it's there's a lot of Chaos in in our ecosystem 
>  right now which I think is healthy and it's a sign that this is 
>  an active Community where really good work is being done let's 
>  let's continue to do that for a little while and the fact that I 
>  called it presentation request was probably a little bit 
>  confusing so I apologize for that.
> Sharon Leu:   But I think.
> <kerri_lemoie> DIF Presentation Exchange: 
>  https://identity.foundation/presentation-exchange/
> Sharon Leu:  Being too is that we've introduced this idea that 
>  your wallet needs to hold multiple credential types of verifiable 
>  credentials as well so I think that you know again we're going to 
>  pick this conversation up again I think at ccg on the 30th of 
>  this month Also let's have this on the mailing list you know 
>  we're not sure if we get this right exactly all the time.
> Sharon Leu:   And you.
> <kerri_lemoie> Please join the VC-EDU email list: 
>  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/
> Sharon Leu:  The good thing is that we have multiple chances at 
>  this like this is not a one-and-done situation we might do this 
>  again and continue to build on the work so I hope that that 
>  addresses it and I see mommy's hands up but I don't know who's 
>  next in line so I'll turn this back over to Kari to actually do 
>  this.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you I'm actually next in line and I was 
>  really only going to add to a Kidman and Sharon said mostly what 
>  I was going to say but you know I think about this this plugfest 
>  is sort of the rubber meets the road time right where we have 
>  been trying to work on work towards verifying for a long time and 
>  digital credentials and this is where we can establish examples 
>  that are others can look at so this think of this as like the 
>  foundational part ask.
> Kerri Lemoie:   Effective of verifying or scaffolding for that so 
>  that we can.
> Kerri Lemoie:  It's adoption from here it's sort of a first step 
>  in that direction - I think you are next.
> Manu Sporny:  Go yeah just do speak really quickly to some of the 
>  capabilities that at least the chappie playground can bring to 
>  bear its and just to be transparent with everyone on kind of our 
>  plans for the chappie playground we're adding oid for support 
>  into the playground that's you know in the works as some of you 
>  also saw we added the verifier back-end support for.
> Manu Sporny:   Happy playground so.
> Manu Sporny:  Are now which basically means that you can now use 
>  the chappie playground to issue a variety of credentials into a 
>  digital wallet hold them in the digital wallet that's what we did 
>  in plugfest 2 and the new features are it has a verification 
>  capability now which can connect to multiple different verifier 
>  back end so I know that we're trying to kind of maybe not do that 
>  because that might be a bridge too far in this plugfest.
> Manu Sporny:   But I'm just conveying that.
> Manu Sporny:  That mechanism exists where you can request 
>  multiple different credentials or at least request a credential 
>  right now not multiple ones request a credential and then it'll 
>  be delivered to the chappy playground and then that credential 
>  can be sent to a whole bunch of different verifier Atkins for 
>  verification so that capability is there today in as I mentioned 
>  you know or some variation of oid.
> <dmitri_zagidulin> heh, Manu is implying - you can pre-game 
>  Plugfest /4/, and test interop between verifiers / RPs
> Manu Sporny:   For is going to be in.
> Manu Sporny:  As well so we're going to be moving away from you 
>  know calling it The Chap you playground it just calling it a VC 
>  playground because it will support multiple protocols multiple 
>  issuer back ends multiple verifier back ends and then we'll have 
>  to talk about maybe adding this feature that allows you to 
>  request multiple credentials at the same time so just an update 
>  on where things are based on kind of what you've outlined here 
>  Sharon it.
> Manu Sporny:   It feels like.
> Manu Sporny:  We should have most of that functionality there in 
>  whatever's missing you know whatever comes about is part of this 
>  discussion we could probably add fairly quickly that's it.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks buddy I shared this no one in the queue 
>  right now you've seen my other things like today.
> Dmitri Zagidulin: https://forms.gle/Nnc2fsgiyaMHbYkQA
> Sharon Leu:  Okay I just I feel like I just have to other things 
>  but I do want to say again on the screen slide here's our general 
>  calendar click on this form submit your information as quickly as 
>  possible but you know by June we're going to try to notify 
>  everyone by June 7 so like almost immediately after we're going 
>  to set up another like dedicated technical conversation we're 
>  going to set up the slack channels again if.
> Sharon Leu:   People want them.
> Sharon Leu:  We're going to work towards demo day on being on 
>  October 9th so that's the general calendar I know also that we're 
>  still working on the agenda items for what would be a good 
>  conversation for us to have that the ccg meeting on the 30th of 
>  this month I think the co-chairs were generous enough to give us 
>  some time to talk about the VC as you going zone so this I think 
>  is a potential for what we could continue talking about the thing 
>  that I wanted to talk about with this so you know.
> Sharon Leu:   I think that we talked a little bit about how.
> Sharon Leu:  Is the fake playground here higher but I think and I 
>  did allude to this like I am interested in I think I'll double 
>  down and like Carrie said which is that we want to increase 
>  adoption and again this.
> Sharon Leu:  Okay so this is this is also where you know because 
>  jff is not a technology company we don't specifically focus on 
>  standards development we don't do any of the kind of work that 
>  you do on this call but what we do is we try to think about how 
>  can we build up the entire ecosystem and as again as we were 
>  doing some research on verifiers and use of digital credentials 
>  one of the key things is that building the demand for you.
> Sharon Leu:   Is of digital credentials.
> Sharon Leu:  Is something that needs to be done it's not only 
>  that credentials are issued in a digital format obviously PDFs is 
>  not where we're about on this call but it's encouraging our 
>  stakeholders to see the bigger picture of what it would look like 
>  for their credentials to be verifiable credentials and so we are 
>  hoping in addition to the fake credentials that we have that we 
>  will be able to use real digital verifiable credentials will give 
>  some exposure to a lot of organizations.
> Sharon Leu:   Patients who are issuing.
> Sharon Leu:  So even though we are not bringing issuers into the 
>  plugfest specifically like we did last time we are looking for 
>  credentials to make into verify credentials to put into either of 
>  these players so that the organization's themselves that create 
>  these credentials and organizations that would rely on some of 
>  these credentials would be able to get some exposure to this 
>  community to test it out in some of your wallets and to really 
>  start.
> Sharon Leu:   Art understanding the process of what that might 
>  look like.
> Sharon Leu:  I meant to to actually implement this kind of 
>  Technology stack so I think that this is a little bit of where 
>  we're going and so if you would like to let us know like a few 
>  people have already told us a number we have in addition to our 
>  to fake credentials some potential candidates for some verifiable 
>  credentials that would be optional so what we're saying is you 
>  have to use the two fake credentials that we have so the jmf 
>  plugfest three credential.
> Sharon Leu:   Lin an OB 3D three formats you're going to use.
> Sharon Leu:  He is identity document in their format of a VC and 
>  then you're going to pick from a list of these credentials that 
>  were going to make into verifiable credentials one of the 
>  examples is we may use a European verifiable credential in the LM 
>  model maybe it depends on if that becomes json-ld soon ish right 
>  so we might get one of those we've been talking with people who 
>  issue occupational.
> Sharon Leu:  But nationally in the US that are also relevant 
>  internationally and a number of these other types of credentials 
>  that are real that contribute to our use case but that actually 
>  has impact on whether or not an individual can pursue opportunity 
>  moving forward so again this is because our organization is 
>  focused on the impact and we want to drive demands and we know 
>  that there's a lot of Education that needs to happen that's not 
>  just how to how does one build this credential or this wallet or 
>  make some of the.
> Sharon Leu:   Plug-and-play work so that's a little bit of the 
>  complexity that we're adding for our own.
> Sharon Leu:  You have an idea of a credential that you know about 
>  in the wild that you think is a really high impact credential 
>  that we should work with those groups either the issue in groups 
>  or the verifying groups to you know turn these into verifiable 
>  credentials that we can use for the purposes of plugfest 3 then 
>  you know click on that link and and write a little bit about it 
>  and we'll follow up with you and that is the last thing that I 
>  have to say about this so back to you Kerry.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Make sure I'm going to um add a couple things to 
>  where you just said and ask you a question when is that keeping 
>  in mind that we did only one BC format throughout the plugfest so 
>  far so for plugfest one in plugfest to we did open badges 3 and 
>  the Sharon just said we're introducing another format and so that 
>  would be two that's different at the change of the world will 
>  have to do is to accommodate a different format and you can 
>  expect that as you can.
> Kerri Lemoie:   Time as a wallet there's going to be more and 
>  more of these so this.
> Kerri Lemoie:  The opportunity to start thinking through how your 
>  software can accommodate the different formats and be flexible in 
>  that way Sharon wouldn't question for you this this third 
>  credential or these other credentials would these be an open 
>  badges format or do we not know yet we not decided.
> Sharon Leu:  I think it's unknown / undecided.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Okay so stay tuned for that.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Hey don't see anybody else in the queue Dimitri 
>  and Sonny I'm just going to say a couple of things about BC edu 
>  just to you all know we are here to support the slugfest and 
>  provide resources we have the mailing list to ask questions and 
>  here to help us be successful just like we did for the previous 
>  two so if there's any other questions you have after this call 
>  feel free to reach out to us be sure to publish use minutes as 
>  soon as I can.
> Kerri Lemoie:   And so that we have this in the mail.
> Kerri Lemoie:  You can respond to that or just write the mailing 
>  list I yourself feel free to reach out to us.
> <sharon_leu> Mailing list: public-vc-edu@w3.org
> Kerri Lemoie:  It's money and Dimitri do you have anything you'd 
>  like to add to that.
> <deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> great work all!
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The only thing I'd like to add is so far we 
>  haven't seen much respondents from the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Did come to Camp so if the come to is an 
>  important protocol to what you're doing.
> <simone_ravaioli> All good on my side.
> <kerri_lemoie> Can subscribe to the vc-edu list here: 
>  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Then you should recommend some implementers to 
>  come forth and and fill out the form thanks.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Signature x on it.
> <niels_klomp> The problem with didcomm v2 is that Aries 
>  implementers have no problem showing interop
> <niels_klomp> The rest of the world does
> <sharon_leu> Thanks!
> Kerri Lemoie:  Okay I don't see anybody else in the queue Sharon 
>  so if I'm everyone is okay for now this is our kickoff meeting 
>  and we will all be in touch about the next call please do join us 
>  on May 30th because we will be reviewing some of this but 
>  guaranteed they'll probably be some new information there and 
>  maybe maybe hopefully some demos from but there may be so I will 
>  be in touch thank you everybody have a great week.
> <niels_klomp> Thanks all
> <taylor_kendal_(lef)> *ty all... and to our robot overlords for 
>  re-lying and pointing out the need for this work :)
> <dmitri_zagidulin> @Niels lol nice
> <manu_sporny> Thanks all! :)
> 
>