- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:25:11 +0000
- To: "public-tt@w3.org" <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D8134E32.6D00A%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2018/11/15-tt-minutes.html
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15 Nov 2018
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] https://www.w3.org/2018/11/15-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Nigel, Andreas, Thierry, Glenn, Mike, Pierre
Regrets
None
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]This meeting
2. [5]F2F meetings
3. [6]TTML Profile Registry
4. [7]TTWG Future Requirements
5. [8]Ruby Reserve
6. [9]TTWG Repo
7. [10]Meeting close
* [11]Summary of Action Items
* [12]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<scribe> scribe: nigel
Glenn: [can only stay 50 minutes]
This meeting
Nigel: Welcome everyone. For today we have joint f2f meeting
with EBU,
... TTML Profile Registry and TTWG Future Requirements.
... I'd like to take a quick look at the two new repos as well.
... Any other points to raise or other business?
Glenn: I think we should start discussing planning for a
possible September meeting,
... and potential issues and conflicts schedule-wise.
Nigel: Okay.
Glenn: I remember Pierre saying last week that the TPAC 2019
schedule conflicts with
... IBC so we should decide if we want to meet in Amsterdam or
London instead perhaps.
Nigel: Okay let's cover that in f2f meetings agenda topic.
F2F meetings
Nigel: Status of the joint meeting proposal with EBU on Feb
1st?
Andreas: Last week we confirmed our plan. EBU Timed Text
members and TTWG members
... will sit together and mainly discuss the further process
and activity on the live subtitling
... use case and how to use EBU-TT Live and what work can be
done together.
... On the day before, 31st Jan we have a TTWG meeting but we
also proposed in the
... EBU group if people may want to join that meeting as well
with the idea in mind that
... possibly some of the work we have done before in EBU could
be shifted to the W3C
... group so work could be done together. Nigel you may want to
say more about it, but
... there is the offer that a few EBU members can join the TTWG
meeting as Observers.
... For the Wednesday the day before we plan an informal
dinner.
Nigel: Thank you for that summary.
... Yes, that fits my understanding, I have made the offer that
EBU Timed Text group
... members can join TTWG's meeting as Observers and asked
anyone who wants to do that
... to let me know in advance, and also highlighted the IPR
considerations that apply.
... The key point I think is those dates are finalised.
... Thierry, could I ask you please to put together a meeting
wiki page?
tmichel: OK, put an action on me
[13]Action on Thierry to create the meeting page
[13] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/3
Nigel: We know the main agenda topic is future requirements and
potential Charter revisions.
... Any other agenda topics to raise now for that f2f meeting?
Thierry: Unless I can invite people from WebVTT, then no, but I
doubt that.
Nigel: Okay, let me know if that arises.
Glenn: I think that inviting the VTT folks would be a good
idea.
Nigel: I will contact David Singer and let him know this is
planned and offer him the opportunity to use the time.
Thierry: Before that I have the action to invite David, Silvia
and other to a meeting some time soon.
Nigel: Moving on to the September 2019 TPAC or other F2F
meeting.
Glenn: I wanted to open a discussion. I would propose that we
have a meeting in
... Amsterdam if someone can fund the facility or perhaps BBC
could host us in London
... around the same time frame as IBC.
Nigel: I am sure I could host us if that's what we want to do.
Andreas: My question is when we should decide that.
... I agree also with Nigel's point from last week that it is
unfortunate about the timing
... of TPAC and other events, but I see a great benefit to
having TPAC and the opportunity
... to meet other folks and other WGs and push stuff that if
other groups meet together.
Thierry: I need to go to TPAC!
Pierre: In all likelihood I will need to be at IBC for some
period of time so then I have to
... figure out with SMPTE meetings right on top of TPAC. At
best it might mean I cannot
... make it to TPAC until later in the week or not at all.
Thursday and Friday I could probably
... make.
Andreas: When do you need us to make a decision?
Pierre: I agree TPAC is more than TTWG and so I think it would
seem silly unless the
... majority of the group does not plan to go to Japan not to
have a TTWG meeting.
... It might help folks like me if there's a remote conference
option, in case some significant
... decisions need to be made there.
Nigel: Some links for dates:
[14]IBC Exhibition 13-17 September 2019
[14] https://show.ibc.org/exhibition
[15]TPAC wiki page - 16-20 September 2019
[15] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2019
Nigel: IBC is in Amsterdam, Holland, TPAC in Fukuoka, Japan
Pierre: Right, if it were in the same continent it would be a
lot easier but getting to Japan
... from Europe takes an entire day at the very least.
Nigel: The easiest line in the sand is we should aim to meet
19-20 September.
Pierre: And if possible make remote participation available.
Nigel: It has always been an option in the past, I don't think
it will be a problem.
... I've confirmed the dates for TPAC also at
[16]https://www.w3.org/participate/meetings
... Any other views on this topic?
[16] https://www.w3.org/participate/meetings
TTML Profile Registry
Nigel: I haven't seen any action on the repo this week. Is
there anything to report?
Mike: From my perspective, no change since last week: Glenn has
some broad things he
... was planning to work on and I didn't see a good reason to
commit anything until then.
Glenn: I've not been able to get to this item I'm afraid. Next
week I will try to allocate
... some time to this so I hope to see some progress soon.
... Please make noise if I repeat that line for too many more
meetings!
Nigel: Will do!
... One thing that we can all do is review the open pull
requests, for example there's
... one that adds EBU specifications, which should be pretty
easy to review if everyone could
... take a quick look.
[17]TTML Profile Registry pull requests
[17] https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pulls/
TTWG Future Requirements
Nigel: The first thing I'd like to cover here, briefly, is that
as requested last week
... we have two new repos, thank you for taking that action
Thierry.
[18]TTWG Future requirements repo
[18] https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs
[19]TTWG general group actions and planning repo
[19] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/
Nigel: The requirements repo is where we can raise issues for
new requirements,
... and then triage them and work out which specs they will
each impact.
... To make it easier to track what's happening I've created a
Project:
[20]Requirements tracker project
[20] https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs/projects/1
Nigel: I've created 4 columns, for Initial Proposal, Agreed
requirement, Deferred Requirement and Rejected requirements.
Pierre: Just a comment on those columns, I'm not sure how it's
supposed to work. Those
... boards are for following progress of an issue. You use
milestones and potentially tags
... to work out the status of each.
Nigel: My view is we can use them how we like!
[21]Strategy Funnel
[21] https://github.com/w3c/strategy/projects/2#card-14248237
scribe: I've taken inspiration from the strategy funnel.
... If we want to track progress through to completion of
issues that could be an additional
... board, for example.
Pierre: I don't understand - there are already milestones, why
are we inventing something else?
Nigel: They're not milestones
Pierre: There's already something for tracking, labels and
milestones.
... If there's no milestone on a requirement then it's
unscheduled.
Nigel: I think this is orthogonal to that and still useful.
Pierre: Anyway I just think it's more bureaucracy for little
gain.
Nigel: Okay, I've also added labels, for example to indicate if
I think a requirement might
... need a charter revision.
... What I'd say here is let's treat this as an experiment and
see if its useful.
Andreas: I think it is very useful to organise it in these
panels but it makes sense to discuss
... it now when it is first proposed so we start with something
we can all agree on.
... We should agree on the process.
... First an initial proposal before a WG discussion.
... Then we discuss it, and do what? Add it to a specific
milestone. We should see it as an
... agility backlog. If it is not rejected (because out of
scope) then it is still in the backlog.
... The easiest thing is to say if it is part of the TTML2
milestone.
... A deferred requirement means we have discussed it but that
it is not good for the next
... milestone, but then how to make a difference to proposals
not yet discussed.
... Maybe easiest to have a backlog and whenever the next
milestone pops up it may be
... discussed again. Only things definitely out of scope get
rejected, and need to be
... changed and resubmitted to be considered again.
Nigel: Milestones are useful but obviously we have to be
careful because an issue can only
... be in one milestone at a time, whereas I think it can be on
multiple boards and have
... multiple labels.
... Also it should be clear looking at any one issue what its
status is without having to
... see where it is on the board.
... The other thing to raise is that we have github pages
enabled on this repo and
... Glenn has created a skeleton TTML2 requirements document.
[22]TTML2 2nd Ed Requirements
[22] https://w3c.github.io/tt-reqs/ttml2-2e-reqs/index.html
Nigel: Glenn, how do you envisage this working?
Glenn: My view of how to use this new requirements repo for
TTML2 2nd Ed is that
... people file high level issues as an anchor for tracking,
and then be prepared to write
... out a more complete description of it using markdown and
put it in the Proposed directory
... under ttml2-2e-reqs and then as the group does that I will
incorporate the content as
... necessarily edited into the requirements document that I've
prepared. That will give us
... something to publish as a Note and refer to as the
requirements source for the next edition.
... I don't want to create too much process but it would be
useful to do something like that.
Nigel: I suggest using Markdown and have asked Philippe if we
have a W3 theme to use
... for generating authentic-looking pages from the markdown.
He hasn't come back to me
... on that yet.
Pierre: Respec.js supports Markdown if someone is not
comfortable with HTML. My
... recommendation is to stick with text, period.
Glenn: I think we need to go through a distillation process to
get the proposer to get down
... their thoughts and I'd like a more complete description
than something in an issue.
... It should be owned by the proposer rather than the
requirements document editor.
... Sorry I have to run now!
Pierre: My comment was not about how people would submit
requirements - we should
... accept anything, even Powerpoint, but the final
requirements document should be Respec.
Glenn: I did use Respec for this.
Nigel: It seems like we're in broad agreement here.
... One thing I would really encourage is that alongside any
requirements comes some
... testable statements, for example in the style of Behaviour
Driven Development (BDD).
... That will allow us to check that any future spec changes
meet the desired outcomes.
... It will also allow us to create implementation tests that
are meaningful.
... Any other thoughts about these requirements?
... Reminder that we have a deadline of 20th December for
documented requirements to
... discuss in our f2f, so please do submit them!
Ruby Reserve
Pierre: Someone asked me about how to deal with Ruby Reserve in
CSS. Do you recall how
... we said we would do it?
Nigel: I can't recall off the top of my head.
Pierre: I don't recall it being put in the CSS hopper.
Nigel: Looking at the CSS Ruby spec, the obvious thing to do is
to use white space, but
... I don't know how you'd author that.
Pierre: That's how IMSC.js does it, maybe that's the answer,
use zero width whitespace.
Nigel: Maybe, it doesn't seem great.
Pierre: Alright, thanks.
TTWG Repo
Nigel: Coming back to my earlier point, we have the TTWG repo
now, and I've created
... a project for us in there, with a column for actions and
another for future meetings.
... Again, experimentally, I raised the agenda for today as an
issue on that repo.
[23]TTWG Project board
[23] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/projects/1
Nigel: Any initial comments on that, is it useful to have
agendas raised as issues?
Pierre: What about adding them as documents?
Nigel: Yes, I could do that, I like the idea of being able to
close the issue and have it
... move out of the way.
Andreas: If it is easier for you Nigel I don't mind, I haven't
had an issue that needs to be
... solved I think.
Nigel: The only issue it fixes is it means I can correct
mistakes in agendas after they have been sent out.
Mike: I have to run, thank you everybody. [leaves call]
Nigel: It also provides a hook for people to request agenda
topics.
... The last thing it allows is future planning of agenda
topics more than a week in advance.
... So it could have some advantages.
... I'll run with both for a while and see how it goes.
Meeting close
Nigel: Thank you everyone, we've completed our agenda, meet
same time next week. [adjourns meeting]
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
David Booth's [24]scribe.perl version 1.154 ([25]CVS log)
$Date: 2018/11/15 16:23:30 $
[24] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[25] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Received on Thursday, 15 November 2018 16:25:36 UTC