RE: edited TTWG draft charter, VTT?

I feel compelled to comment on this....

As a someone who is *very* interested in both captioning and subtitling from both a personal and a professional perspective I have never found the TTML group to be a hostile environment.

Sure, the *process* aspects have sometimes seemed somewhat bureaucratic...and yes, sometimes my discussions with the very gifted group members have been a little bruising to the ego at times, but that's not what I would call hostility. IMHO that's a natural consequence of working within an established process with a group that has extremely high standards, commitment, knowledge and experience.

I am personally grateful for the opportunity to interact with this group - it has been both enlightening and rewarding.

Best regards,
John


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-----Original Message-----
From: Nigel Megitt [mailto:nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk]
Sent: 27 March 2018 11:24
To: David Singer <singer@apple.com>; David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com>
Cc: W3C Public TTWG <public-tt@w3.org>; Silvia Pfieffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>; Pierre-Anthony Lemieux <pal@sandflow.com>; Thierry Michel <tmichel@w3.org>
Subject: Re: edited TTWG draft charter, VTT?

> The timed text working group is a hostile environment for anyone who
>is interested in captioning in general, and not XML-dialects in specific.

I find this statement highly concerning. Can you substantiate it?



On 26/03/2018, 20:34, "singer@apple.com on behalf of David Singer"
<singer@apple.com> wrote:

>
>
>> On Mar 26, 2018, at 12:32 , David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I think that a label from the W3C (“Rec.”) may be not that
>> > important
>>to them.
>>
>> Then the issue is solved, is it not?
>
>That’s why I am asking the question, at the charter transition time.
>
>We’re also bogged down in the other members of the committee
>nit-picking and deliberately delaying; maybe to make the other work
>look better. We wasted an entire month recently, for example. The timed
>text working group is a hostile environment for anyone who is
>interested in captioning in general, and not XML-dialects in specific.
>
>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 12:31 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 26, 2018, at 12:20 , David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I don’t think it very constructive to get into a comparison
>>argument of the two specifications.
>> >
>> > The only thing I am comparing is the level of support.  TTML2/IMSC2
>>has broad industry support with many organizations willing to invest
>>time and money to move the work forward.  WebVTT does not.
>>
>> OK, you do want an unproductive discussion, so be it.
>>
>> VTT is supported in all major browsers; TTML is not, and probably
>>never will be.
>>
>> With the exception of Regions, the support for VTT is remarkably
>>complete and consistent. TTML dialects slide through the ’N
>>implementatuins’ requirement because there are M>N candidate
>>implementations, and for any given feature, you can cherry-pick which
>>implementations support it correctly; so for any row in the table
>>(row==feature) there are indeed 3 green check-marks ― but there’s no
>>solid consistent set of columns which support the basic feature set
>>interoperably. The amount of red, last time I checked, was extraordinary.
>>
>> Yes, a lot of committees endorse TTML dialects ― W3C, EBU, SMPTE, and
>>so on ― but rather fewer engineers. The opposite is true for VTT.
>>
>> I have repeatedly asked where TTML is achieving ‘blind
>>interoperability’ ― where TTML-dialect files are being written without
>>knowing or caring which client will play them. This is tthe major
>>function of a public specification, and so far, I have not heard of a
>>good answer. (Both the BBC and Netflix’s use of TTML (iPlayer and the
>>Netflix player) are effectively closed ecosystems, where the player is
>>provided by the same company as is authoring the files.)
>>
>> > You should not expect those who are not committed to WebVTT to
>> > carry
>>the water.
>>
>> I’m not.
>>
>> > Find one company willing to invest in the project at a level that
>>matters, and your problem is solved.
>>
>> They’ve implemented and moved on, and I think that a label from the
>>W3C
>>(“Rec.”) may be not that important to them.
>>
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 12:09 PM, David Singer <singer@mac.com> wrote:
>> > I don’t think it very constructive to get into a comparison
>> > argument
>>of the two specifications. Honestly, they both have problems.
>> >
>> > The investment in the many implementations of VTT, including in
>>browsers, happened years ago, it’s true. There are open-source,
>>browser-based, standalone, polyfill and translation implementations.
>>In fact, one problem is that people don’t see a need to be involved in
>>formal processes after the time when it was all implemented; they’ve
>>implemented and moved on.
>> >
>> > Can we drop this “your spec. is X” line of discussion? I don’t see
>> > it
>>yielding any useful insights.
>> >
>> > > On Mar 26, 2018, at 12:04 , David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > thats what Im talking about: the time spent in this group on
>>moving WebVTT to CR has been negligible.
>> > >
>> > > We are all doing the W3C work as representatives of our
>>companies/organizations, and you should not be surprised that the
>>collective priorities of the participanting individuals and
>>organizations is where the time gets spent.  What should concern you
>>is that there are no companies/organizations or even individuals that
>>believe that WebVTT is important enough to invest time or money in the
>>effort, nor to even join the weekly calls.  How can WebVTT move
>>forward with no one willing to do the heavy lifting, and why should it?
>> > >
>> > > >  It has more implementations and complete features than the
>> > > > very
>>first time TTML went to CR
>> > >
>> > > What happened 10 years ago is not relevant.  TTML2 and IMSC2 will
>>have multiple independent implementations of every feature.  Included
>>in this is the open source TTT rendering project.  This is years of
>>collective effort and many millions of dollars invested by many
>>organizations to see this through.  Again going to my previous comments.
>> The WebVTT problem is that there are no companies/organizations
>>willing to make a similar investment in WebVTT to complete the
>>project.  It is not unreasonable, therefore, to conclude that the
>>collective industry has decided that WebVTT is no longer relevant, and moved on.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Silvia Pfeiffer
>><silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Hi Pierre,
>> > >
>> > > thats what Im talking about: the time spent in this group on
>> > > moving WebVTT to CR has been negligible. All the effort has been
>> > > done by others outside the group. This group was tasked with a
>> > > transition it basically has no interest in.
>> > >
>> > > And about exit criteria: this is the first CR of WebVTT. It has
>> > > more implementations and complete features than the very first
>> > > time TTML went to CR - there's no way you can compare the status
>> > > of the two specifications at first CR and not see this difference.
>> > >
>> > > I am not angry about this - it is what it is. I'd just like the
>> > > decision to be made.
>> > >
>> > > Kind Regards,
>> > > Silvia.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 5:26 AM, Pierre-Anthony Lemieux
>> > > <pal@sandflow.com> wrote:
>> > > > Hi Silvia,
>> > > >
>> > > >> No other specification in the history of W3C has had to jump
>>through this many hoops to get to CR.
>> > > >
>> > > > As far as I know, WebVTT has been held to the same criteria for
>> > > > CR transition as IMSC (and TTML2).
>> > > >
>> > > > For better or for worse, the group has collectively spent
>> > > > multiple hundreds of man-hours closing issues leading up to the
>> > > > TTML2 CR.
>> > > >
>> > > > Best,
>> > > >
>> > > > -- Pierre
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Silvia Pfeiffer
>> > > > <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> If there is a decision this group should take, it's to move
>>webvtt to CR. I
>> > > >> challenge you to get this done rather than throw another
>> > > >> process
>>roadblock
>> > > >> at webvtt.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It's ready and has been for a long time. No other
>> > > >> specification
>>in the
>> > > >> history of W3C has had to jump through this many hoops to get
>> > > >> to
>>CR.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> All other groups of the W3C have deemed it ready for months of
>>not years.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Do everyone a favour and just decide to move it.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Kind regards,
>> > > >> Silvia.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On Tue., 27 Mar. 2018, 3:16 am Nigel Megitt,
>><nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Not so much an opinion as a restatement - at this point we
>> > > >>> seem
>>to be in
>> > > >>> the realm of process. We made the following resolution at
>> > > >>> TPAC
>>2016 in
>> > > >>> Lisbon [1] as proposed by David Singer:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> > RESOLUTION: If we do not move WebVTT to CR in this Charter
>>period then
>> > > >>> >we will not include it in any new Charter.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> [1]
>> > > >>> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-tt-minutes.html#resolution01

>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> If there's another way to meet the needs of the folk who want
>>to progress
>> > > >>> VTT, then one way to satisfy that resolution is to close this
>>line of work
>> > > >>> in TTWG and remove it from the draft new Charter; I think the
>>Process
>> > > >>> requires publication as a WG Note in this event. I assume
>> > > >>> that
>>this does
>> > > >>> not preclude taking it up again in another WG or other forum.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> I can't actually see any other ways to satisfy the resolution
>> > > >>> -
>>are there
>> > > >>> any?
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Otherwise we would need to make a new different decision very
>>quickly (and
>> > > >>> our Decision Policy review period for any decision made now
>>expires after
>> > > >>> the end of the current Charter, so time is not in favour);
>>before doing
>> > > >>> that I would ideally like to see some evidence that something
>>has changed
>> > > >>> to warrant us revisiting it.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> For tracking purposes, I raised
>> > > >>> https://github.com/w3c/charter-timed-text/issues/21 on
>> > > >>> Thursday
>>22nd
>> > > >>> March.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Nigel
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> On 23/03/2018, 17:21, "David Singer" <singer@mac.com> wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >I¹m in debate with Silvia over the progression of VTT.  Do
>>others have
>> > > >>> >opinions?
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >With WhatWG on a firmer footing, much of the original
>>motivation to do a
>> > > >>> >Rec. has evaporated, and at this point looks like a lot of
>>busy work to
>> > > >>> >little reward. Are there people who see it differently?
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >> On Mar 23, 2018, at 3:16 , Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
>>wrote:
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >> Hi,
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >> I have edited the TTWG draft charter with the changes
>> > > >>> >> agreed
>>during our
>> > > >>> >>TTWG telecon.
>> > > >>> >> Please review the draft charter
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >>
>>https://w3c.github.io/charter-timed-text/Draft-2018-TTWG-Charter.html

>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >> Deadline is Monday midnight US coast. I will send the
>>charter on
>> > > >>> >>tuesday to W3M for approval, and will request a charter
>>extension.
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >> Thierry
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >David Singer
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >singer@mac.com
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > David Singer
>> >
>> > singer@mac.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> David Singer
>> Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>>
>>
>
>David Singer
>Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>



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Received on Tuesday, 27 March 2018 10:50:08 UTC