Re: edited TTWG draft charter, VTT?

> The timed text working group is a hostile environment for anyone who is
>interested in captioning in general, and not XML-dialects in specific.

I find this statement highly concerning. Can you substantiate it?



On 26/03/2018, 20:34, "singer@apple.com on behalf of David Singer"
<singer@apple.com> wrote:

>
>
>> On Mar 26, 2018, at 12:32 , David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I think that a label from the W3C (¡°Rec.¡±) may be not that important
>>to them.
>>
>> Then the issue is solved, is it not?
>
>That¡¯s why I am asking the question, at the charter transition time.
>
>We¡¯re also bogged down in the other members of the committee nit-picking
>and deliberately delaying; maybe to make the other work look better. We
>wasted an entire month recently, for example. The timed text working
>group is a hostile environment for anyone who is interested in captioning
>in general, and not XML-dialects in specific.
>
>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 12:31 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 26, 2018, at 12:20 , David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I don¡¯t think it very constructive to get into a comparison
>>argument of the two specifications.
>> >
>> > The only thing I am comparing is the level of support.  TTML2/IMSC2
>>has broad industry support with many organizations willing to invest
>>time and money to move the work forward.  WebVTT does not.
>>
>> OK, you do want an unproductive discussion, so be it.
>>
>> VTT is supported in all major browsers; TTML is not, and probably never
>>will be.
>>
>> With the exception of Regions, the support for VTT is remarkably
>>complete and consistent. TTML dialects slide through the ¡¯N
>>implementatuins¡¯ requirement because there are M>N candidate
>>implementations, and for any given feature, you can cherry-pick which
>>implementations support it correctly; so for any row in the table
>>(row==feature) there are indeed 3 green check-marks ¡ª but there¡¯s no
>>solid consistent set of columns which support the basic feature set
>>interoperably. The amount of red, last time I checked, was extraordinary.
>>
>> Yes, a lot of committees endorse TTML dialects ¡ª W3C, EBU, SMPTE, and
>>so on ¡ª but rather fewer engineers. The opposite is true for VTT.
>>
>> I have repeatedly asked where TTML is achieving ¡®blind
>>interoperability¡¯ ¡ª where TTML-dialect files are being written without
>>knowing or caring which client will play them. This is tthe major
>>function of a public specification, and so far, I have not heard of a
>>good answer. (Both the BBC and Netflix¡¯s use of TTML (iPlayer and the
>>Netflix player) are effectively closed ecosystems, where the player is
>>provided by the same company as is authoring the files.)
>>
>> > You should not expect those who are not committed to WebVTT to carry
>>the water.
>>
>> I¡¯m not.
>>
>> > Find one company willing to invest in the project at a level that
>>matters, and your problem is solved.
>>
>> They¡¯ve implemented and moved on, and I think that a label from the W3C
>>(¡°Rec.¡±) may be not that important to them.
>>
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 12:09 PM, David Singer <singer@mac.com> wrote:
>> > I don¡¯t think it very constructive to get into a comparison argument
>>of the two specifications. Honestly, they both have problems.
>> >
>> > The investment in the many implementations of VTT, including in
>>browsers, happened years ago, it¡¯s true. There are open-source,
>>browser-based, standalone, polyfill and translation implementations. In
>>fact, one problem is that people don¡¯t see a need to be involved in
>>formal processes after the time when it was all implemented; they¡¯ve
>>implemented and moved on.
>> >
>> > Can we drop this ¡°your spec. is X¡± line of discussion? I don¡¯t see it
>>yielding any useful insights.
>> >
>> > > On Mar 26, 2018, at 12:04 , David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > thats what Im talking about: the time spent in this group on
>>moving WebVTT to CR has been negligible.
>> > >
>> > > We are all doing the W3C work as representatives of our
>>companies/organizations, and you should not be surprised that the
>>collective priorities of the participanting individuals and
>>organizations is where the time gets spent.  What should concern you is
>>that there are no companies/organizations or even individuals that
>>believe that WebVTT is important enough to invest time or money in the
>>effort, nor to even join the weekly calls.  How can WebVTT move forward
>>with no one willing to do the heavy lifting, and why should it?
>> > >
>> > > >  It has more implementations and complete features than the very
>>first time TTML went to CR
>> > >
>> > > What happened 10 years ago is not relevant.  TTML2 and IMSC2 will
>>have multiple independent implementations of every feature.  Included in
>>this is the open source TTT rendering project.  This is years of
>>collective effort and many millions of dollars invested by many
>>organizations to see this through.  Again going to my previous comments.
>> The WebVTT problem is that there are no companies/organizations willing
>>to make a similar investment in WebVTT to complete the project.  It is
>>not unreasonable, therefore, to conclude that the collective industry
>>has decided that WebVTT is no longer relevant, and moved on.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Silvia Pfeiffer
>><silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Hi Pierre,
>> > >
>> > > thats what Im talking about: the time spent in this group on moving
>> > > WebVTT to CR has been negligible. All the effort has been done by
>> > > others outside the group. This group was tasked with a transition it
>> > > basically has no interest in.
>> > >
>> > > And about exit criteria: this is the first CR of WebVTT. It has more
>> > > implementations and complete features than the very first time TTML
>> > > went to CR - there's no way you can compare the status of the two
>> > > specifications at first CR and not see this difference.
>> > >
>> > > I am not angry about this - it is what it is. I'd just like the
>> > > decision to be made.
>> > >
>> > > Kind Regards,
>> > > Silvia.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 5:26 AM, Pierre-Anthony Lemieux
>> > > <pal@sandflow.com> wrote:
>> > > > Hi Silvia,
>> > > >
>> > > >> No other specification in the history of W3C has had to jump
>>through this many hoops to get to CR.
>> > > >
>> > > > As far as I know, WebVTT has been held to the same criteria for CR
>> > > > transition as IMSC (and TTML2).
>> > > >
>> > > > For better or for worse, the group has collectively spent multiple
>> > > > hundreds of man-hours closing
>> > > > issues leading up to the TTML2 CR.
>> > > >
>> > > > Best,
>> > > >
>> > > > -- Pierre
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Silvia Pfeiffer
>> > > > <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> If there is a decision this group should take, it's to move
>>webvtt to CR. I
>> > > >> challenge you to get this done rather than throw another process
>>roadblock
>> > > >> at webvtt.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It's ready and has been for a long time. No other specification
>>in the
>> > > >> history of W3C has had to jump through this many hoops to get to
>>CR.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> All other groups of the W3C have deemed it ready for months of
>>not years.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Do everyone a favour and just decide to move it.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Kind regards,
>> > > >> Silvia.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On Tue., 27 Mar. 2018, 3:16 am Nigel Megitt,
>><nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Not so much an opinion as a restatement - at this point we seem
>>to be in
>> > > >>> the realm of process. We made the following resolution at TPAC
>>2016 in
>> > > >>> Lisbon [1] as proposed by David Singer:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> > RESOLUTION: If we do not move WebVTT to CR in this Charter
>>period then
>> > > >>> >we will not include it in any new Charter.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-tt-minutes.html#resolution01

>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> If there's another way to meet the needs of the folk who want
>>to progress
>> > > >>> VTT, then one way to satisfy that resolution is to close this
>>line of work
>> > > >>> in TTWG and remove it from the draft new Charter; I think the
>>Process
>> > > >>> requires publication as a WG Note in this event. I assume that
>>this does
>> > > >>> not preclude taking it up again in another WG or other forum.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> I can't actually see any other ways to satisfy the resolution -
>>are there
>> > > >>> any?
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Otherwise we would need to make a new different decision very
>>quickly (and
>> > > >>> our Decision Policy review period for any decision made now
>>expires after
>> > > >>> the end of the current Charter, so time is not in favour);
>>before doing
>> > > >>> that I would ideally like to see some evidence that something
>>has changed
>> > > >>> to warrant us revisiting it.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> For tracking purposes, I raised
>> > > >>> https://github.com/w3c/charter-timed-text/issues/21 on Thursday
>>22nd
>> > > >>> March.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Nigel
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> On 23/03/2018, 17:21, "David Singer" <singer@mac.com> wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> >I©öm in debate with Silvia over the progression of VTT.  Do
>>others have
>> > > >>> >opinions?
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >With WhatWG on a firmer footing, much of the original
>>motivation to do a
>> > > >>> >Rec. has evaporated, and at this point looks like a lot of
>>busy work to
>> > > >>> >little reward. Are there people who see it differently?
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >> On Mar 23, 2018, at 3:16 , Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
>>wrote:
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >> Hi,
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >> I have edited the TTWG draft charter with the changes agreed
>>during our
>> > > >>> >>TTWG telecon.
>> > > >>> >> Please review the draft charter
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >>
>>https://w3c.github.io/charter-timed-text/Draft-2018-TTWG-Charter.html

>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >> Deadline is Monday midnight US coast. I will send the
>>charter on
>> > > >>> >>tuesday to W3M for approval, and will request a charter
>>extension.
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >> Thierry
>> > > >>> >>
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >David Singer
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >singer@mac.com
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > David Singer
>> >
>> > singer@mac.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> David Singer
>> Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>>
>>
>
>David Singer
>Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>



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Received on Tuesday, 27 March 2018 10:24:30 UTC