{minutes} TTWG Meeting 2015-12-10

Thank you all who attended today's rather unusual meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at: http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-tt-minutes.html


In text format:


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

10 Dec 2015

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          pal, tmichel, nigel, andreas, plh

   Regrets
          dakim, frans

   Chair
          nigel

   Scribe
          nigel

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]This meeting
         2. [5]IMSC
         3. [6]TTML
         4. [7]2015 Process
         5. [8]TTML-WebVTT mapping
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     * [10]Summary of Resolutions
     __________________________________________________________

   <scribe> scribe: nigel

This meeting

   pal: I need to leave early so can we cover off any IMSC stuff
   early?

   nigel: Yes. AOB anyone?

   group: no AOB

IMSC

   nigel: We've had quite a lot of activity. Pierre are we able to
   review the IMSC changes to see which are substantive?

   pal: I was planning to do that next week, but we could do some
   of them now.

   nigel: Anything else to cover?

   pal: The only thing is this issue of the definition of
   "prohibited". I'm not sure how much progress we can make on
   this without Glenn.
   ... Otherwise I've made progress resolving the issues online.
   Thanks for reviewing.

   nigel: Thanks for making the fixes!

   pal: The other issue is if we need an algorithm for discovering
   the IMSC profile.
   ... [11]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/111

   ... I was wondering if there are further thoughts on that, and
   the definition of prohibited are the two outstanding issues.
   ... Maybe we need to continue that offline since Glenn is not
   on the call.
   ... [12]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/114


     [11] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/111

     [12] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/114


   atai2: I'm just wondering if we covered this in Sapporo. I
   thought we captured the case if no profile is available.
   ... I wasn't aware that there's a problem.

   pal: That's an important point - it was the topic of a lengthy
   discussion with Glenn in the room and I think we arrived at
   language with
   ... consensus. I'm not ready to change that language unless
   there's consensus for a change.

   nigel: I do think there may be an issue around the words
   "successful processing" which we could define as excluding
   ignoring any semantics.

   pal: My inclination is not to change it given the time we've
   spent on it already.

   atai2: I agree with Pierre. We spent a lot of time on it and
   went through a lot of different options. There should be a
   concrete alternative proposal
   ... if someone wants to change the spec.

   nigel: Sorry I think I was talking about the conformance issue
   rather than the profile issue.

   atai2: Also there may be some external information available to
   determine the profile so that's out of scope of the
   specification to say which profile it is in this case.

   nigel: Glenn has stated that he will raise a formal objection
   without such an algorithm in place to deduce the profile.

   pal: My latest proposal to Glenn is neutral in that it proposes
   that if a document cannot be identified as one of the two
   profiles then it should
   ... be treated as a generic TTML document.

   nigel: I think that seems fair.

   <atai2> +1

   nigel: We need Glenn's answer to your question on the issue.

   pal: Seems reasonable to me to treat it as a generic TTML
   document if it can not be determined to be IMSC.

   atai2: Same here.

   <plh> plh: sounds good

   nigel: Is it unreasonable to state an algorithm for deducing
   which kind of IMSC document one is given a starting point of
   'it's some kind of IMSC'?
   ... Glenn did propose: "If no ttp:profile attribute is present,
   then the text profile applies."

   pal: I don't think anyone would use that. I think that there's
   no practical generic algorithm because different circumstances
   apply.

   atai2: I had the same thought as Pierre at first. If you really
   want to find out which profile it is I would search for image
   profile specific content elements (as Pierre just mentioned)
   ... as they are only allowed in the image profile and not in
   the text profile.

   nigel: Likewise you could search for a span

   pal: Exactly.

   nigel: The desire is to look at something at the top of the
   document rather than an in depth search.

   pal: That's right, which is the purpose of ttp:profile and
   ebuttm:conformsToStandard.
   ... There's a document called substantive changes summary,
   under spec, which is a list of substantive changes. My plan is
   to prepare a list
   ... of substantive changes to it, which we can do next week or
   beforehand offline.

   nigel: It could be a good idea to put the changes into a wiki
   page for offline discussion.

   pal: Or we could just add issues to indicate which they think
   are substantive.
   ... I've looked at all the commits and collected them together.

   nigel: I guess we could label each issue.

   pal: That would be smart. I think on past reviews the text
   document is still expected, so that will be the canonical
   source.
   ... I plan to have that document ready for next week.
   ... I'll set up some time with you Nigel to review the list
   early next week.

   nigel: Okay, great.

   pal: [has to leave.] Bye

TTML

   plh: It turns out that TTML has won an award. The email has
   been sitting in my spam for ages but we never got the hard copy
   of the email.
   ... We're trying to figure out if we can get the original
   authors of TTML 1.0 to the ceremony.
   ... [describes the history of how TTWG was set up]
   ... The WG was setup in 2003.
   ... It took me a long time to reconstruct this history!
   ... We're inviting people but we
   ... won't be able to cover the cost of the event itself.
   ... Expect to get more news from us ASAP on that front.

   nigel: Wow! Well that's great news.

   tmichel: I don't know exactly what this award is - is it for
   W3C for designing the language? Is it the first language in W3C
   to be rewarded?

   <plh> [13]http://emmyonline.com/tech_67th_recipients


     [13] http://emmyonline.com/tech_67th_recipients


   plh: It came out of the blue! We were not expecting it.
   ... I can't tell you if we ever got an award for HTML. We do
   believe it's the first Emmy award we've received. We don't
   expect to get television awards.

   nigel: Have you managed to check with Mike Dolan and David
   Ronca on why SMPTE and Netflix are also listed?

   plh: I haven't yet. I was hoping they'd be here today.

   tmichel: So the award is shared between all 5 organisations?

   plh: Yes. I think each will get a statue but I'm not 100% sure.
   ... If you're interested in finding more about it you could
   look at last year's ceremony in which JPEG2000 got an award.
   ... David Kirby will be in our thoughts. He commented on
   Thierry's draft charter, and was involved from the very early
   days. Goeff Freed took the lead in very very early days out of
   WAI PF.
   ... We need Glenn too of course. [...]

   nigel: Of course the first Rec was in 2010, so there was a lot
   of work over a long time.

   plh: In early 2008 I came in and decided not to use SMIL text
   but TTML, and drafted a new charter to restart the WG.
   ... Then we had some discussions over scope that delayed the
   Rec (dynamic flow!).
   ... The spec is dedicated to David Kirby, which was proposed by
   Sean Hayes. It was the way it turned out that on November 15th
   I sent the
   ... email to the Directors asking for Rec status and on
   November 16th we received the news from BBC that David has
   passed. Then Sean
   ... asked for the dedication and on Nov 18th we published with
   the REC with the dedication present. It happened within 3 days.
   ... The whole issue with HTML surfaced in 2009 and that
   triggered the discussion about SRT and TTML that led to WebVTT.

   nigel: This is a really interesting story - I'd like to see a
   written down version.
   ... Sorry to be a boring chair but are there any actions around
   this right now?

   plh: Not right now, but expect to receive an email from us.

   [14]http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/REC-ttaf1-dfxp-20101118/


     [14] http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/REC-ttaf1-dfxp-20101118/


   plh: We have to send that back tomorrow so we're turning it
   around pretty fast.

   tmichel: The question that comes to my mind is: what is this
   going to bring to W3C or TTML? First, is W3C going to be
   granted some
   ... money for more research?

   plh: No.

   tmichel: And secondly, does this push the language to be
   implemented more? Would that help? Like getting an award at
   Cannes helps to promote the movie?

   plh: I don't know to be honest. This has come from the
   television industry. Mike Dolan would know more than I do on
   this front about what
   ... it means for the impact on the television industry. I don't
   think it will necessarily make a difference to browser makers.
   ... If it helps TTML in the adoption of the TV industry - I
   know it's been adopted by SMPTE, EBU, DECE, DVB, HbbTV 2.0.

   <atai2> +q

   nigel: There's a whole list of adopters out there.

   plh: The one thing you'd be able to say at least is "Emmy award
   winner: TTML"! :)

   atai2: That's great to hear, so congratulations. Really
   impressive. I have some comments on the TTML WebVTT mapping
   document if there's still time.

2015 Process

   nigel: I just want to check that there are no queries or
   comments on the proposal to adopt the 2015 process?

   tmichel: I just wanted to add a small issue about publishing a
   new CR version as we know that we are going to publish a CR of
   IMSC but we
   ... also know that we have more comments coming in and we will
   need another publication of a CR after that. Somebody asked me
   if we should
   ... wait or publish now. I think plh's view is we should wait
   and collect everything for a CR, implement as much as possible
   and target just
   ... one snapshot instead of more iterations.

   plh: My common view is publish as often as you can, but you
   have to balance that with the effort needed and the detail
   level.

TTML-WebVTT mapping

   atai2: I think given the time we should postpone that until
   next week, especially as Simon has left the IRC.

   nigel: Apologies for cutting off two conversations. But that's
   okay because we're at the end of our meeting time.
   ... It's been an unusual meeting - thanks very much. Next week
   we have the last meeting of the year. We should have a
   resolution on
   ... adopting the 2015 process and agreement on which IMSC
   changes are substantive, so it should be a good one.

   plh: Congratulations to the group [for the award].

   nigel: Thanks very much everyone [adjourns meeting]

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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     [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

     [16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/






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