{minutes} TTWG Meeting 2015-04-30

Thanks everyone for attending today's meeting. Minutes in HTML format can be found at: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html

Please remember to review the TTML2 editorial actions spreadsheet at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/file/tip/ttml2/spec/ednotes.xlsx and let me and Glenn know which actions you'd like to volunteer for.

In text format:


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

30 Apr 2015

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-irc


          nigel, Andreas, courtney, pal, plh





     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]This meeting
         2. [5]Action items
         3. [6]Issues
         4. [7]IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report
         5. [8]WebVTT review feedback
         6. [9]TTML2 Editorial Actions
     * [10]Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 30 April 2015

   <scribe> scribe: nigel

This meeting

   nigel: AOB?

   group: no AOB

Action items


   <trackbot> action-390 -- Nigel Megitt to Update the
   multirowalign and linepadding ttml files to have shorter lines
   of text -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [11] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/390


   <trackbot> action-391 -- Nigel Megitt to Update the
   multirowalign and linepadding pngs to match the ttml -- due
   2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [12] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/391

   nigel: I was hoping that Andreas could review these before I
   close them.

   Andreas: I had some problems with Mercurial but this is on the
   top of my list to review. I'll come back next week with these.



     [13] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report#Tests



     [14] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/file/tip/ttml-ww-profiles/testsuite/linePadding/linePadding1.ttml



     [15] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/file/bb46ee1c9c18/ttml-ww-profiles/testsuite/linePadding/

   nigel: You can browse directly using the repository - see above
   ... I should possibly remove the .png files that aren't 16x9 or
   4x3 because they're wrong and not referenced anywhere.


   <trackbot> action-392 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Tweak the
   examples with multiple regions so that they appear in a more
   intuitive order. -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [16] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/392

   nigel: Pierre, you've adjusted the multiple region examples?

   pal: Yes.

   close action-392

   <trackbot> Closed action-392.


   <trackbot> action-393 -- Nigel Megitt to Send pal details of
   implementation and tests passed so he can create a table in the
   implementation report -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/393

   nigel: We discussed this last week and plh uploaded the videos.
   I think that's all done now.

   <plh> [18]http://media.w3.org/2015/04/

     [18] http://media.w3.org/2015/04/


   ... The two BBC prototype tests are now on the above results

     [19] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report#Results

   close action-393

   <trackbot> Closed action-393.


   <trackbot> action-400 -- Nigel Megitt to Send smpte
   dispositions from action-378 to smpte (mdolan) -- due
   2015-04-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/400

   nigel: I sent Mike our dispositions on the SMPTE email on
   Monday. Just for info, when David Singer
   ... reviewed the draft he noticed that the TTML2 features may
   be subject to further change when we
   ... go to wide review, so we added an extra sentence in the
   introduction to highlight that point.
   ... Obviously Mike already knows it anyway.

   close action-400

   <trackbot> Closed action-400.

   nigel: There are lots of open actions remaining - does anyone
   want to call out any specifically that may
   ... have had some work but not been updated on the tracker?


   <trackbot> action-389 -- Andreas Tai to Check with ebu group if
   we can have a combined event at ibc with ebu group and imsc/w3c
   -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN


     [21] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/389

   andreas: We are having internal discussions on if we can have
   joint presentations at IBC for IMSC and EBU-TT-D.


   <trackbot> action-398 -- Andreas Tai to Contact erik lindstrom
   re htmlcue -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN


     [22] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/398

   andreas: I wrote to Erik re the generic HTMLCue idea and he
   responded today that there has been
   ... some ongoing work with Glenn and it was considered for use
   in blink. The idea was to transform
   ... TTML documents to ISDs and then generate HTML code from
   them. That was the basic idea. Maybe
   ... the document itself shouldn't be proposed directly to the
   group but could be the basis for a proposal.
   ... The next thing is to check if Opera or Erik is able to work
   with someone else in the group on that
   ... proposal. I understand this is something we can discuss
   with the HTML WG at the next TPAC meeting.
   ... Possibly this group should scope more what our requirements
   should be for this internal cue concept.

   close action-398

   <trackbot> Closed action-398.

   Andreas: The idea was that we make some kind of proposal for
   the HTML WG. I think we decided we
   ... want to go ahead with this. Is that right?

   pal: Yes, I think there was broad consensus that it would be a
   good idea.

   andreas: I think so; I can imagine that Erik or Opera would be
   willing to participate in this if there are
   ... other collaborators, and to use their input as a base. I'm
   certainly interested but have not enough
   ... knowledge at the moment to volunteer.

   pal: This has been a long running project. As I recall, Glenn
   had put a lot of effort into trying to get this
   ... done and the obstacles were not technical. So do you feel
   that those obstacles have been overcome
   ... and this is mainly technical work? I'm just trying to
   understand the status. I'd love to be able to help.

   andreas: Mostly my information is based on what Glenn said. I
   think the main obstacle is time on Glenn's
   ... side, that was my interpretation. This hasn't yet been
   proposed to HTML WG but was a ticket raised
   ... on Chromium, but it didn't get positive feedback.

   pal: So the current strategy is to write an HTML extension and
   submit it to the HTML WG. I'm happy to help.
   ... Is there a draft? Do we have a beginning?

   andreas: I'm not sure. He brought Opera's proposal in as a good
   start. Possibly we can say that pal and I
   ... are willing to help and if we can work with Erik then we
   can plan on how to push this forward.

   pal: Maybe we can take this on with just the 4 of us and see
   where we go.

   nigel: Great, we need to turn this into actions. Philippe,
   what's the normal way to publish HTML extensions?
   ... Do we have to do it as a Recommendation, or is a Note okay?

   plh: There's no standard way to do it. It could be published by
   HTML WG under the Media Task Force
   ... or here - if you want it to be a Recommendation from this
   group then you need to update the charter
   ... and send it to AC for review. It's normal for HTML
   extensions to be Rec track documents.
   ... This reminds me that the Media Task Force met 2 weeks ago
   and discussed transcripts. There is
   ... interest there to do further work on transcripts.
   ... Figure out where the best place is to work on it, in HTML
   WG or here, and then adjust the
   ... charters as needed. Adding a deliverable to a charter isn't
   too difficult to do.

   nigel: It seems to me that we need two pieces of work: one to
   define the generic HTMLCue structure
   ... and the other to define the mapping from TTML/ISD to

   Andreas: Do you think the HTML WG would define the HTMLCue and
   and we would define the mapping?

   nigel: Yes, that's what I was thinking. Even if we write the
   HTMLCue spec and give it to HTML WG as an
   ... extension that would be fine.

   pal: I tend to agree with nigel that for both implementation
   and correctness the HTML WG should publish
   ... the generic HTMLCue part.

   plh: The best thing is to pitch it to the Media Task force and
   the HTML Accessibility Task Force. They
   ... both work on media related issues. Once you guys have a
   proposal I'm happy to help.

   nigel: I'd like to make an 'in principle' proposal first before
   we put in loads of effort that would be
   ... rejected.

   plh: Certainly as much detail on use cases and proposed
   approaches for solving them would be useful.

   <scribe> ACTION: atai2 Kick off discussions with Erik, Glenn,
   Nigel, Pierre on HTMLCue [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-401 - Kick off discussions with erik,
   glenn, nigel, pierre on htmlcue [on Andreas Tai - due


   <trackbot> Action-394 -- Courtney Kennedy to Determine who is
   responsible for putting together the dispositions of comments
   document and get a schedule from them. -- due 2015-04-17 --


     [24] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/394

   Courtney: I talked to dsinger - clearly this is under way and
   he's actively running it. I didn't get a schedule from him.
   ... I'm happy with the progress report so far. He sent a
   spreadsheet - he's going to update it and maybe
   ... make it into a web page. Other than that everyone's aware -
   it's all been on the public list.

   close action-394

   <trackbot> Closed action-394.



   <trackbot> issue-382 -- Require a computed non-indefinite begin
   time -- open


     [25] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/382

   pal: There's been a lot of offline discussions on this issue.
   To summarise: there's a difference in opinion
   ... on exactly how the Root Temporal Extent works and what it
   means and the interaction between
   ... TTML1 and SMIL. So the very premise is still murky;
   therefore it's been difficult to make progress.
   ... My thinking on this is that I don't think IMSC 1 can do
   much to resolve ambiguities in SMIL and TTML1.
   ... If they are there they should be resolved at some point.
   The best IMSC 1 can do today with the
   ... least impact is to recommend that begin and end are used on
   div or p. That does not resolve the
   ... existing ambiguity but unambiguously captures when elements
   are active within an IMSC 1 document.
   ... That would not be a SHALL but rather a SHOULD. In the
   majority of TTML documents I've seen so far
   ... begin and end are used on p or div. We can continue to try
   to dig, and maybe reach a resolution.
   ... The other is to add a recommendation in IMSC 1 to specify
   begin and end on ps and divs. EBU-TT-D
   ... actually requires begin and end on p or span. Or the third
   option is to do nothing.
   ... I'm not optimistic that we can resolve the ambiguity.

   andreas: I agree with pal on this. I thought we might conclude
   to recommend the use of timing
   ... explicitly in the document. So I think that was the second

   pal: Yes, actually we had discussed a SHALL. I'm not sure
   that's appropriate because it sounds like
   ... there are applications where it's correct to omit begin and
   end times even though the vast majority
   ... of cases include them.

   andreas: In the discussions I've had with people not involved
   in the specification process they like as
   ... many SHALLs as possible. If we know there are some problems
   and there are no clear use cases
   ... not to specify begin and end I can still see reasons to
   specify a SHALL not a SHOULD.

   nigel: The use case comes from me actually in thinking about
   live cases. For distribution use cases I
   ... agree that begin and end times should or even shall be
   present, but the scope of IMSC is not
   ... completely restricted to distribution. I would accept a
   compromise that qualifies the requirement
   ... with it only applying when distributing the documents in a
   wrapper format.

   pal: I am not sure that the times must always be present so
   that's why I'm proposing a SHOULD.

   andreas: It's always a specification issue whether you know
   there's a use case or you don't know that
   ... there isn't a use case. I'd be happy to go with a should if
   that's what you think.

   pal: If we're happy with this then I'd add a simple line under
   #timing to say begin and end should be
   ... present on at least one of div, p and span.

   nigel: That works for me. You do need to allow for the
   possibility of timing on span.
   ... Are you also planning to add a note on the potential

   pal: The best I could write is maybe: "if begin remains
   indefinite then the begin corresponds to the begin
   ... of the root temporal extent"... but that's where the
   disagreement is so I'm not sure what to write.

   nigel: As far as I know this issue has been raised only by
   Pierre. If we just make this change then
   ... maybe if there's an implementation problem we can deal with
   that as a specific problem to solve.
   ... That sounds like a resolution to this issue.

   pal: When I've done that then that will allow me to move ahead
   with the CR2 and the list of changes.

   plh: I'll help you with that. Are there any substantial

   nigel: Yes, we reviewed them in the F2F and minuted them.

   plh: If you make substantive changes you have to go to LC.

   nigel: That's not what we understood - there is no LC in the
   new process.

   plh: Ah my mistake you're on the 2014 process. We will have to
   ask for Director permission to go to CR
   ... again.

IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report

   nigel: My BBC colleagues spotted that the example video on the
   frameSync test has an edit list that
   ... moves the frames on by 2, which makes their gstreamer
   implementation fail.

   pal: I've sent you the source for that video - maybe your
   colleagues could see if they can create an
   ... alternative version of the video without the edit list.

   nigel: Okay I'll see what we can do.

WebVTT review feedback

   Courtney: There's nothing more to report on this right now.

TTML2 Editorial Actions

   nigel: We're out of time for this meeting but if you'd like to
   volunteer for any editorial actions please
   ... email me.
   ... Thanks everyone! [adjourns meeting]

   plh: regrets for next week (AC)

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: atai2 Kick off discussions with Erik, Glenn,
   Nigel, Pierre on HTMLCue [recorded in

   [End of minutes]

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Received on Thursday, 30 April 2015 15:20:15 UTC