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[minutes] Timed Text 20130725

From: Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 11:31:35 -0400
Message-ID: <1374766295.1895.124.camel@chacal>
To: public-tt <public-tt@w3.org>
Available at
 http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html

Text version:

                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

25 Jul 2013

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Plh, Thierry, Pal, Sean, Glenn, Nigel, mijordan,
          Thomas_Bause_Mason

   Regrets
          Mike

   Chair
          Sean

   Scribe
          plh

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Holiday next week
         2. [5]Open actions
         3. [6]issue 259
         4. [7]issue 261
         5. [8]issue 262
         6. [9]issue 264
         7. [10]issue 150
         8. [11]Action items
         9. [12]AOB
        10. [13]Next meeting
     * [14]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

Holiday next week

   Next week meeting is postponed

Open actions

   action-88?

   <trackbot> ACTION-88 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to make sure the
   TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175. -- due
   2013-07-31 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [15]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88

     [15] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88

   --> [16]https://tools.iana.org/public-view/viewticket/695904
   tracker for medfia type

     [16] https://tools.iana.org/public-view/viewticket/695904

   action-177?

   <trackbot> ACTION-177 -- Glenn Adams to update local copy of
   xml.xsd to use newer copy based on above link. -- due
   2013-07-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/177

     [17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/177

   Glenn: I have the info but didn't get to it yet

   ation-178?

   action-178?

   <trackbot> ACTION-178 -- Sean Hayes to open new issue(s)
   describing problems with concrete encoding. -- due 2013-07-25
   -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [18]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/178

     [18] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/178

   action-178: that's issue 264

   <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-178 Open new issue(s)
   describing problems with concrete encoding..

   close action-178

   <trackbot> Closed ACTION-178 Open new issue(s) describing
   problems with concrete encoding..

   action-179?

   <trackbot> ACTION-179 -- Sean Hayes to follow up with plh on
   ACTION-88 -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [19]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/179

     [19] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/179

   close action-179

   <trackbot> Closed ACTION-179 Follow up with plh on ACTION-88.

   action-180?

   <trackbot> ACTION-180 -- Glenn Adams to ensure that 10REC
   errata page is cleared after 10SE is published as REC. -- due
   2013-07-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [20]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180

     [20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180

   Sean: waiting on that one

   action-182?

   <trackbot> ACTION-182 -- Thierry Michel to create ttml2 and
   ttml1 short names, to change tracker product labels as needed
   -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [21]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/182

     [21] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/182

   Thierry: didn't reserve it yet

   Sean: main issue is to separate the two versions

   action-183?

   <trackbot> ACTION-183 -- Sean Hayes to work with plh on TPAC
   schedule. -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [22]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/183

     [22] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/183

   Sean: we're clashing with Web and TV IG

   plh: can we move to Thursday/Friday?

   Sean: clash with HTML WG

   pal: do we need more than one day?

   plh: Sean: could we do Monday and Friday?

   Sean: could we do Monday and Friday?
   ... if we get everything done on Monday, we won't need the
   Friday

   <tmichel> I may have a digital publishing meeting on friday

   Sean: won't clash with WebTV IG and HTML WG business

   <tmichel> OK

   <scribe> ACTION: Thierry to check with Angel if Monday/Friday
   is ok [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-184 - Check with Angel if
   Monday/Friday is ok [on Thierry Michel - due 2013-08-01].

   close action-183

   <trackbot> Closed ACTION-183 Work with plh on TPAC schedule..

issue 259

   issue-259?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-259 -- Define "closest" -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [24]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259

     [24] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259

   The term "closest" is used a number of times. Does closest mean
   12.5 = 12 or 12.5 = 13? Suggest defining closest more
   precisely.

   pal: hopefully, that's purely editorial. going over the
   document and making sure we're clear on what closest means

   <scribe> ACTION: Glenn to go through the spec for issue 259
   [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-185 - Go through the spec for issue
   259 [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].

   issue-260?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-260 -- When agent is not @type 'character',
   then should prohibit actor child. -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [26]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/260

     [26] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/260

   Glenn: if the type isn't character we shouldn't have an actor
   child
   ... found the issue when implementing the validator tool
   ... agent can be person, organization, other

   Nigel: in a dramatic reconstruction, you may have an actor
   playing a real person
   ... so I would allow actor for person and character

   Glenn: sounds like there is a use case for this then
   ... if we're going to allow for person and other, do we want a
   restriction at all?
   ... maybe we can tweak the prose...

   <scribe> ACTION: Glenn to work with Nigel to come up with a
   resolution for issue 260 [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-186 - Work with Nigel to come up with
   a resolution for issue 260 [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].

issue 261

   issue-261?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-261 -- signaling docoument profile conformance
   is separate from decoder presentation requirements -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [28]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/261

     [28] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/261

   Sean: let's skip this for the moment

   Nigel: from the EBU meeting, we did consider profiling
   ... we'd like to provide some input in our experience about
   creating EBU-TT

   Sean: I'd like to dedicate a special meeting on profiles, maybe
   in 2 weeks
   ... misunderstandings about use cases
   ... would that work for EBU?

   Nigel: I doubt we'll be ready by then

   Sean: we can wait then
   ... it's not urgent but need to be addressed at some point

   Nigel: if you want something formal, that would take more time
   ... I'll check with the EBU group
   ... for documentation of the profile issues
   ... we'll make sure that folks can attend

   Pal: sounds like a great idea but later date better
   ... there is long discussion between Mike Dolan and Glenn on
   the reflector
   ... did you look at it?

   [...]

   Pal: would be good to take into account the discussion there in
   the EBU

   Paul: issue 263 is also related
   ... it deals with how to specify mechanically a profile that
   applies constraints on features

   Sean: we need to understand what we built, if it fits the use
   cases, and move from there
   ... there are other issues around profile that weren't close
   properly either

   Pal: look at the original intent from Glenn on profile
   ... fundamental background to understand how it's designed
   today

   Sean: ok, let me know when folks are ready for this discussion

   Glenn: the list of features in 1.0 was something that I
   produced during the CR phase of 1.0
   ... in order to refer technical feature that we wish to create
   tests for
   ... it wasn't something the group did
   ... based on my best reading
   ... but we didn't go through it in details
   ... now we have actual practice feedback

   Sean: they were useful, but we have more experience now indeed
   ... we may divide some of the features, inheritance, etc.
   ... so it's open for ttml 2

issue 262

   issue-262?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-262 -- tts:extent semantics if value not
   supported -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [29]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/262

     [29] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/262

   Sean: Glenn, any more thought?

   Glenn: initial thinking was to mandate support for auto
   ... so if you support extent at all, you need to interpret auto
   as well

   Nigel: this kind of issue should be part of the discussion on
   profile
   ... the media support or not needs to be considered there

   Glenn: agreed
   ... we have to draw some line somewhere because we can't
   specify everything but we need better guidelines on how to
   interpret those sentences

   Sean: so, part of profile discussion?

   Glenn: related to supported or not.
   ... if the agent doesn't support a value, what does it do?

   Sean: can we resolve this one by removing "supported" in the
   phrase?

   Glenn: not sure yet
   ... can we do it after we're done with profiles?

   Sean: sure

issue 264

   issue-264?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-264 -- What XML entities are valid in TTML
   canonical syntax -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [30]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/264

     [30] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/264

   Sean: [summarize the issue]
   ... I've seen content through as copy/paste from html
   ... but ttml processors don't deal with those
   ... so we need to clarify what is or isn't supported

   Glenn: appendix N refers to XML 1.0 (or 1.1)
   ... it defines what you get
   ... &nbsp; isn't one of those
   ... we could add a note for readers that don't understand these
   things

   <pal> +1

   Glenn: we could define more, but don't like it

   Sean: I'm fine with a note
   ... will help pointing content people to
   ... as it stands it's a bit open

   <njm> +1

   <scribe> ACTION: Glenn to add a note to appendix N on valid XML
   entities [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-187 - Add a note to appendix N on
   valid XML entities [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].

   Glenn: applies to TTML 1.0 and TTML 2

issue 150

   issue-150?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-150 -- TTML XSD vallidation and extension
   problem -- closed

   <trackbot>
   [32]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/150

     [32] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/150

   Sean: is there anything to discuss there?

   Nigel: this is something that has come up as a real world issue
   ... woulde help to have a more granular version in XSD of
   what's permitted

   Sean: new issue or open the old one?

   Glenn: let's open a new. also related to skip, lax, and strict
   processing in XSD
   ... XSD 1.1 helps a bit
   ... we added ##other to resolve issue-150
   ... it allows foreign @ to fall through the schema
   ... also related issue on the purpose of the schema isn't
   aligned with our definition of validity in the document
   ... our schema is to be used with concrete document instead of
   abstract valide infoset

   <scribe> ACTION: Glenn to create an issue to address the use of
   other namespace vocabulary in the schema [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action05]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-188 - Create an issue to address the
   use of other namespace vocabulary in the schema [on Glenn Adams
   - due 2013-08-01].

Action items

   close action-61

   <trackbot> Closed ACTION-61 Request shortname ttml11 prior to
   FPWD on TTML1.1.

   Nigel: issue-179 was discussed in the EBU meeting as well
   ... at the moment, there is one coordinate system in TTML
   ... the graphic plane may have a different resolution than the
   captions
   ... that's difference is causing some issues about what to do
   ... same issue in the temporal domain as well

   Sean: for the HTML5 to CSS mapping, the graphic plane
   resolution is independent. there is a logical pixel effectively
   ... I scale down to the video rectangle after that
   ... that gets over the whole issue

   <glenn> back

   Sean: but because TTML has some abstract words around pixel. we
   could define a default pixel grid
   ... with possibility of overwriting that

   <glenn> suggest we use the SVG user coordinate space model

   Sean: and then transform it to the graphic plane

   Nigel: scaling horizontal/vertical differences

   Sean: different methods to scale
   ... that transformation process is outside the spec. it's for
   the spec that defines the video media grid
   ... but ttml would keep the logical pixel grid

   Nigel: I think I agree re logical coordinate system

   Sean: so action-94 is to write that down

   close action-129

   <trackbot> Closed ACTION-129 Draft response to bring back to
   the group to respond to IANA on MIME type submission..

   action-141?

   <trackbot> ACTION-141 -- Sean Hayes to call for Action to
   identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. --
   due 2013-02-14 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [34]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141

     [34] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141

   action-143?

   <trackbot> ACTION-143 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to provide
   location to Glenn for unwrapped schemas. -- due 2013-02-14 --
   OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [35]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/143

     [35] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/143

   plh: we still want to have an unwrapped schema?

   sean: it could create a server issue

   close action-143

   <trackbot> Closed ACTION-143 Provide location to Glenn for
   unwrapped schemas..

   action-164?

   <trackbot> ACTION-164 -- Sean Hayes to investigate interop
   issues using CSS familyName constructs -- due 2013-06-06 --
   OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [36]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164

     [36] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164

   issue-33?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- ts:fontFamily and quotedString -- closed

   <trackbot>
   [37]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/33

     [37] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/33

   issue-223?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-223 -- Need to make <familyName> consistent
   with CSS syntax rules. -- closed

   <trackbot>
   [38]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/223

     [38] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/223

   Glenn: this was about the \u handling
   ... you'd need to transform into numeric character reference
   instead

   Sean: we don't define what happen with the family string...

   Glenn: it's in a string, it's treated differently

   Sean: I can't imagine someone using non-generic font types

   Glenn: we define it...

   action-164: this is about the embedded unicode mapping

   <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-164 Investigate interop issues
   using CSS familyName constructs.

   Pal: there is an app out there that uses non-generic font
   family
   ... so let's not break backward compatibility...
   ... it reference the SMPTE @@ profile
   ... there is a mapping defined for the font family name to an
   external font file
   ... I'll be happy to share more details

   <scribe> ACTION: Pierre to report on the use of font family
   names to reference external font file resources [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action06]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - Report on the use of font
   family names to reference external font file resources [on
   Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2013-08-01].

   action-165?

   <trackbot> ACTION-165 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to investigate
   use cases for ISSUE-232 -- due 2013-06-13 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [40]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/165

     [40] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/165

   Pal: there is a spec that allows out there. I'll follow up

   Glenn: wonder if you meant bidi in a vertical context

   action-166?

   <trackbot> ACTION-166 -- Mike Dolan to open issue for 1.1
   regarding encodings -- due 2013-06-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [41]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/166

     [41] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/166

   close action-173

   <trackbot> Closed ACTION-173 Fold issue-258 into change
   proposal 15 and close 258.

   close action-176

   <trackbot> Closed ACTION-176 Work with W3T to lengthen
   scheduled meeting to 2h.

AOB

   Nigel: reporting from EBU: we're going to create a liaison
   communication back to the group
   ... topics
   ... presentation style multi-row line
   ... might be covered by shrink-to-fit
   ... line row padding
   ... metadata
   ... carriage of binary data
   ... profiling
   ... ability to express date
   ... ie add date to the time expression
   ... crossing midnight present some issues

   Sean: we have the ability to do clock expression, but specific
   dates present challenges due to leap seconds

   Glenn: it's related to the current local time midnight
   ... if you want to related to a different date, you have to do
   something
   ... you could have + offset but only allow 23 hours

   Sean: I think the idea is to have some metadata to specify the
   start
   ... then we could use utc offset time

   Nigel: one outcome, but something else as well. you could end
   up with a 0 crossing issue
   ... no way to indicate that 0 crossing happened
   ... it can happen if you got a reference time scale that goes
   up but the system might need to reboot...

   Sean: ok, we'll need more details then

   Nigel: understood
   ... one more from EBU: to confirm the meaning of a doc with no
   time expression in it
   ... we think it's externally defined
   ... which is fine

   Glenn: the root container temporal extent is define by the
   presentation processing context
   ... and body is defined as a parallel construct by default
   ... so any text in the document would leave for as long as the
   external extent exists
   ... you could follow throught the spec
   ... but maybe not be all in one paragraph

   Pal: Member submission from Movielabs
   ... [42]https://www.w3.org/Submission/2013/02/
   ... happy to answer questions
   ... make sense in the context of the revision of the TTWG
   charter

     [42] https://www.w3.org/Submission/2013/02/

   Sean: also input from WebTV IG on the charter

   Pal: goal is not to make life even more complicated by reducing
   the number of profiles
   ... hope it will be taken up by the group

Next meeting

   Sean: in two weeks

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Glenn to add a note to appendix N on valid XML
   entities [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: Glenn to create an issue to address the use of
   other namespace vocabulary in the schema [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: Glenn to go through the spec for issue 259
   [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Glenn to work with Nigel to come up with a
   resolution for issue 260 [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Pierre to report on the use of font family names
   to reference external font file resources [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: Thierry to check with Angel if Monday/Friday is
   ok [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 25 July 2013 15:31:42 UTC

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