- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:52:47 +0000
- To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
Minutes for this meeting can be found at: http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
12 Dec 2013
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
pal, tm, nigel, mijordan, Plh, jdsmith
Regrets
glenn_adams, andreas_tai, mike_dolan
Chair
nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]IANA Registration
2. [5]Actions pending review
3. [6]Charter
4. [7]PAL issues
5. [8]Charter
6. [9]Due next week actions
7. [10]Actions pending review
8. [11]aob?
* [12]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 12 December 2013
zakin, agenda+ Actions Overdue
<tmichel> I am coming ...
<scribe> scribeNick: nigel
<pal> i am present
<tmichel> I am here too
<pal> let me know if you would like input on specific item
<tmichel> zaki, who is here?
IANA Registration
nigel: we did get a response from IANA saying their relevant
expert is looking at our request.
... plh do you know more?
plh: we don't have a timeline for when IANA will respond.
... I'll talk to our main IETF contact, Mark Nottingham to see
if he can do something about it.
Actions pending review
Charter
plh: I have some non-substantive changes from W3C management on
the charter, mostly clarifications e.g. in the scope we can
change a should to a must without adding technical requirements
to the spec.
... It's important to separate the two use cases of video
description and captions, so they're in two tracks. It's out of
TTML's scope to specify track switching.
nigel: video description might need new features.
... such as pan and fade timing metadata, pronunciation
guidance etc.
... especially if the requirement is to support text to speech
... e.g. language models and other technical features.
... We need to have the requirements clear before we make video
description a SHALL vs a SHOULD.
plh: will feed this back.
... the VTT milestone will need to take into account the
charter approval delay
tmichel: also the CR review period is short
plh: can write a note to the TTWG to explain the edits
pal: what is the process now? do we have a timeline?
plh: Unfortunately I can't give a clear answer due to the
document license issue.
... The AB discussed the document license this week. The AB did
not oppose the idea of applying the HTML experimentation to
WebVTT.
... so David Singer can do this. This means I have to spend
time resolving potential issues raised by members.
... At the face to face meeting at TPAC the MS rep was unable
to handle this kind of issue.
jdsmith: I believe there's been discussion at MS but I don't
know the position so far.
plh: the other question is for W3 Management: there are
considerations in terms of extending the experiment and opening
up the possibility for other groups to take the same approach.
... I need to discuss this with the director.
... So this delays the charter submission until at least early
January.
pal: Let me know if there's any way I can help resolve this
because a number of other organisations are looking forward to
IMSC and need a draft for referencing purposes.
nigel: is it possible to split the TTML issues from the WebVTT
issue, or would it be considered poor form by reviewers?
plh: I can ask but it would be awkward.
pal: If this gets to January and this isn't resolved will there
be a point where it is better to split the charter than proceed
without a definite date?
plh: I believe so yes
action-240?
<trackbot> action-240 -- David Singer to Consider the problem
of the license change from cg to wg, with the ac and ab and
staff -- due 2013-11-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[13]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/240
[13] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/240
nigel: I need to formally note to this group the query on
behalf of David Singer: would existing members of the WG object
to the WebVTT rec being published with the CG license?
... not necessarily to answer right now but formally tabled.
plh: David would like to give the WG the choice for WebVTT docs
as to which license they're published under. He wants a
CG-compatible license.
pal: Yes but this is a WG not a CG.
plh: That's true. The one used by the CG is not used by the
HTML experiment (CC-By 3). I'd need to get legal advice on
whether it's compatible with the CG license.
pal: I'm happy to review an updated proposal, but not to do a
lot of work and then find that it changes.
plh: I don't think it's going to be acceptable to allow the WG
to choose the license freely.
Current wording is at:
[14]http://www.w3.org/2013/12/timed-text-charter-david.html
[14] http://www.w3.org/2013/12/timed-text-charter-david.html
nigel: this could change.
plh: If we extend the HTML experiment then every WG member can
object to the selected license.
<plh>
[15]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/html-charter.html#documentlicense
[15] http://www.w3.org/2013/09/html-charter.html#documentlicense
pal: about to drop off.
PAL issues
issue-295
<trackbot> issue-295 -- Remove code point restrictions from
IMSC -- open
<trackbot>
[16]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/295
[16] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/295
issue-296
<trackbot> issue-296 -- Remove xml:lang placement restrictions
from IMSC -- open
<trackbot>
[17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/296
[17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/296
pal: revision this week is intended to address these two
issues. xml:lang constraint removed as discussed at TPAC.
... Character set work: I studied CLDR and the CLDR main set is
a near-perfect subset of previous Annex A so I've refactored
the document to be a superset of CLDR mainset.
... So all chars in CLDR main sets may be used by authors plus
an additional set useful in captioning and subtitle
applications.
... This edit is therefore the proposal.
nigel: The main objector (who relaxed his objection) was Glenn
so we'll leave these as Pending Review for his input.
pal: the next work is to factor in the profiles work when it
has been put into TTML2
<scribe> ACTION: pal to add an issue for tracking purposes to
refactor IMSC to conform to the content profile specification
of TTML2 dependent on TTML2 profile updates. [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-252 - Add an issue for tracking
purposes to refactor imsc to conform to the content profile
specification of ttml2 dependent on ttml2 profile updates. [on
Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2013-12-19].
pal: expects no substantive change but may need to do some
shuffling about.
action-220?
<trackbot> action-220 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Investigate
actual css behavior further regarding whether line height of
individual lines are affected by font size on line as opposed
to maximum over paragraph -- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[19]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220
[19] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220
pal: can close - next step is to review edits
close action-220
<trackbot> Closed action-220.
action-243
<trackbot> action-243 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Edit
dsinger's proposed wording which captures the intent. -- due
2013-12-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[20]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243
[20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243
This action should also be reviewed by all prior to closure -
leaving at Pending Review specifically to give Glenn Adams the
opportunity
Charter
action-246
<trackbot> action-246 -- Nigel Megitt to Take deliverables of
draft charter to tag for scrutiny -- due 2013-11-28 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[21]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/246
[21] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/246
nigel: still open for me, dependent on the revised wording.
action-248?
<trackbot> action-248 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Add atsc to the
ttml charter -- due 2013-12-12 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[22]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/248
[22] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/248
nigel: may be dependent on Mike to give ATSC details or plh can
add something himself.
plh: Others too?
nigel: Yes, following Mark Vickers emails. E.g. HbbTV
... note that BBC is a member of HbbTV
... Mark Vickers still has this action.
plh: note that anyone can comment during review of the LC
action on nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU
paragraph
<trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register
nicknames at
<[23]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/users>.
[23] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/users%3E.
<scribe> ACTION: nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU
paragraph [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-253 - Send plh updated wording for
the ebu paragraph [on Nigel Megitt - due 2013-12-19].
Due next week actions
Actions pending review
action-180?
<trackbot> action-180 -- Glenn Adams to Ensure that 10REC
errata page is cleared after 10SE is published as REC. -- due
2014-10-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[25]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180
[25] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180
close action-180
<trackbot> Closed action-180.
action-203?
<trackbot> action-203 -- Glenn Adams to Investigate 708 border
style mapping issues with mike's help -- due 2013-09-26 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[26]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/203
[26] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/203
action-204
<trackbot> action-204 -- Glenn Adams to Add
sideways{left,right} then close issue-159 -- due 2013-09-26 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[27]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/204
[27] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/204
issue-159?
<trackbot> issue-159 -- Text orientation in I18n script
processing -- closed
<trackbot>
[28]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/159
[28] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/159
close action-204
<trackbot> Closed action-204.
action-207
<trackbot> action-207 -- Glenn Adams to Add round-down
clarification to "closest" language, see issue-259 -- due
2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[29]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/207
[29] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/207
issue-259
<trackbot> issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review
<trackbot>
[30]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
[30] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
<pal> yes
<pal> let me check
<pal> yes
<pal> please carry on while I check
action-208?
<trackbot> action-208 -- Glenn Adams to Add note to issue-275
linking to follow-on changelist which changed to 125% and made
a note in ttml1 -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[31]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/208
[31] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/208
issue-275
<trackbot> issue-275 -- Improve compatibility with line height
'normal' and CSS/XSL-FO implementations. -- closed
<trackbot>
[32]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/275
[32] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/275
<plh> [33]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/11d2d5dcb5a1
[33] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/11d2d5dcb5a1
close action-208
<trackbot> Closed action-208.
action-214
<trackbot> action-214 -- Glenn Adams to Review cp008 and
consider reformulating the recently added <animate> support to
better align -- due 2013-10-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[34]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/214
[34] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/214
mijordan: may need to have longer to review this.
action-219
<trackbot> action-219 -- Glenn Adams to Change to rec in ttml2,
and add note to authors indicating that if author wants
specific value, then they should specify specific value -- due
2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[35]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/219
[35] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/219
[36]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/4b056bc52a0d
[36] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/4b056bc52a0d
<pal> yes still looking at 259
<pal> what is 219?
<pal> specific value of what?
<pal> ok good
<pal> so i think Mike Dolan will have input
<pal> recommend not closing
nigel: okay will leave at pending review
action-220?
<trackbot> action-220 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Investigate
actual css behavior further regarding whether line height of
individual lines are affected by font size on line as opposed
to maximum over paragraph -- due 2013-10-24 -- CLOSED
<trackbot>
[37]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220
[37] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220
nigel: we've covered this
action-221
<trackbot> action-221 -- Glenn Adams to Double check spec
language on css and xsl-fo around line height stacking strategy
-- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[38]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/221
[38] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/221
<pal> re: 259, Glenn implemented something close but different
than recommended.
<pal> I would like to understand why
<pal> before closing it
<pal> great improvement though
<pal> specifically, farthest from 0 != round-up
<pal> for negative values
nigel: we covered 221 already too, related to line height.
Leaving at pending review as per 220
issue-259?
<trackbot> issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review
<trackbot>
[39]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
[39] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
<pal> sure
nigel: pal was agreeing to my request to add a note to
issue-259 stating this small variant to what Glenn implemented.
... i.e. to handle negative values as well as positive ones in
round-up
action-233?
<trackbot> action-233 -- Glenn Adams to Reach out to CSS WG to
understand potential mapping of multi-row-align to CSS -- due
2013-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[40]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/233
[40] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/233
<mijordan> Unfortunately, I have to break off now.
plh: we may not have a quorum to deal with all these actions
nigel: okay what can we do?
action-164?
<trackbot> action-164 -- Jerry Smith to Investigate interop
issues using CSS familyName constructs -- due 2013-12-05 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[41]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164
[41] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164
jdsmith: has talked to Sean and is still investigating. Need
Glenn to discuss further.
plh: Glenn said that XML already has an escape mechanism so we
don't need the CSS one too. The drawback is that you can't just
transfer the text value into a CSS parser.
jdsmith: I've isolated a contact in MS and will follow up.
plh: Without any change an implementation has to de-escape the
XML font family name, then use CSS escaping rules to transfer
to a CSS parser. There's a burden both ways.
... there's a bit more code required on authoring tools for
anyone generating TTML if we change the current mechanism.
nigel: Is this a request to restrict the fontFamily names to
those that do not need additional escaping?
jdsmith: I just need to check the status on this.
action-249?
<trackbot> action-249 -- Glenn Adams to Follow up on
action-220, possibly opening new issue -- due 2013-12-12 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[42]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/249
[42] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/249
close action-249
<trackbot> Closed action-249.
action-141
<trackbot> action-141 -- Nigel Megitt to Call for Action to
identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. --
due 2013-02-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[43]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141
[43] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141
issue-162
<trackbot> issue-162 -- update standalone profile documents --
open
<trackbot>
[44]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/162
[44] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/162
[45]http://www.w3.org/mid/CECF5778.163CC%252525nigel.megitt%254
0bbc.co.uk
[45] http://www.w3.org/mid/CECF5778.163CC%252525nigel.megitt%2540bbc.co.uk
[46]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Dec/0036.
html
[46] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Dec/0036.html
plh: happy to accept the initial proposal.
... See if anyone complains!
nigel: that would create a problem we couldn't solve.
aob?
<pal> I am available
<pal> i would ask Glenn and Mike
nigel: Availability for next week?
<pal> directly
nigel: I will confirm with Glenn and Mike too
... looking ahead I propose not to have a meeting on 26th
December or 2nd January
... next week's meeting will happen unless I notify otherwise
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU
paragraph [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: pal to add an issue for tracking purposes to
refactor IMSC to conform to the content profile specification
of TTML2 dependent on TTML2 profile updates. [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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$Date: 2013-12-12 16:43:07 $
__________________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 12 December 2013 16:53:25 UTC