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Minutes for 12/12/13

From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:52:47 +0000
To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
Message-ID: <5941EAB8802D6745A7D363D7B37BD1F74855EC28@BGB01XUD1012.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Minutes for this meeting can be found at: http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

12 Dec 2013

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-irc


          pal, tm, nigel, mijordan, Plh, jdsmith

          glenn_adams, andreas_tai, mike_dolan




     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]IANA Registration
         2. [5]Actions pending review
         3. [6]Charter
         4. [7]PAL issues
         5. [8]Charter
         6. [9]Due next week actions
         7. [10]Actions pending review
         8. [11]aob?
     * [12]Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 12 December 2013

   zakin, agenda+ Actions Overdue

   <tmichel> I am coming ...

   <scribe> scribeNick: nigel

   <pal> i am present

   <tmichel> I am here too

   <pal> let me know if you would like input on specific item

   <tmichel> zaki, who is here?

IANA Registration

   nigel: we did get a response from IANA saying their relevant
   expert is looking at our request.
   ... plh do you know more?

   plh: we don't have a timeline for when IANA will respond.
   ... I'll talk to our main IETF contact, Mark Nottingham to see
   if he can do something about it.

Actions pending review


   plh: I have some non-substantive changes from W3C management on
   the charter, mostly clarifications e.g. in the scope we can
   change a should to a must without adding technical requirements
   to the spec.
   ... It's important to separate the two use cases of video
   description and captions, so they're in two tracks. It's out of
   TTML's scope to specify track switching.

   nigel: video description might need new features.
   ... such as pan and fade timing metadata, pronunciation
   guidance etc.
   ... especially if the requirement is to support text to speech
   ... e.g. language models and other technical features.
   ... We need to have the requirements clear before we make video
   description a SHALL vs a SHOULD.

   plh: will feed this back.
   ... the VTT milestone will need to take into account the
   charter approval delay

   tmichel: also the CR review period is short

   plh: can write a note to the TTWG to explain the edits

   pal: what is the process now? do we have a timeline?

   plh: Unfortunately I can't give a clear answer due to the
   document license issue.
   ... The AB discussed the document license this week. The AB did
   not oppose the idea of applying the HTML experimentation to
   ... so David Singer can do this. This means I have to spend
   time resolving potential issues raised by members.
   ... At the face to face meeting at TPAC the MS rep was unable
   to handle this kind of issue.

   jdsmith: I believe there's been discussion at MS but I don't
   know the position so far.

   plh: the other question is for W3 Management: there are
   considerations in terms of extending the experiment and opening
   up the possibility for other groups to take the same approach.
   ... I need to discuss this with the director.
   ... So this delays the charter submission until at least early

   pal: Let me know if there's any way I can help resolve this
   because a number of other organisations are looking forward to
   IMSC and need a draft for referencing purposes.

   nigel: is it possible to split the TTML issues from the WebVTT
   issue, or would it be considered poor form by reviewers?

   plh: I can ask but it would be awkward.

   pal: If this gets to January and this isn't resolved will there
   be a point where it is better to split the charter than proceed
   without a definite date?

   plh: I believe so yes


   <trackbot> action-240 -- David Singer to Consider the problem
   of the license change from cg to wg, with the ac and ab and
   staff -- due 2013-11-22 -- OPEN


     [13] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/240

   nigel: I need to formally note to this group the query on
   behalf of David Singer: would existing members of the WG object
   to the WebVTT rec being published with the CG license?
   ... not necessarily to answer right now but formally tabled.

   plh: David would like to give the WG the choice for WebVTT docs
   as to which license they're published under. He wants a
   CG-compatible license.

   pal: Yes but this is a WG not a CG.

   plh: That's true. The one used by the CG is not used by the
   HTML experiment (CC-By 3). I'd need to get legal advice on
   whether it's compatible with the CG license.

   pal: I'm happy to review an updated proposal, but not to do a
   lot of work and then find that it changes.

   plh: I don't think it's going to be acceptable to allow the WG
   to choose the license freely.

   Current wording is at:

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2013/12/timed-text-charter-david.html

   nigel: this could change.

   plh: If we extend the HTML experiment then every WG member can
   object to the selected license.


     [15] http://www.w3.org/2013/09/html-charter.html#documentlicense

   pal: about to drop off.

PAL issues


   <trackbot> issue-295 -- Remove code point restrictions from
   IMSC -- open


     [16] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/295


   <trackbot> issue-296 -- Remove xml:lang placement restrictions
   from IMSC -- open


     [17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/296

   pal: revision this week is intended to address these two
   issues. xml:lang constraint removed as discussed at TPAC.
   ... Character set work: I studied CLDR and the CLDR main set is
   a near-perfect subset of previous Annex A so I've refactored
   the document to be a superset of CLDR mainset.
   ... So all chars in CLDR main sets may be used by authors plus
   an additional set useful in captioning and subtitle
   ... This edit is therefore the proposal.

   nigel: The main objector (who relaxed his objection) was Glenn
   so we'll leave these as Pending Review for his input.

   pal: the next work is to factor in the profiles work when it
   has been put into TTML2

   <scribe> ACTION: pal to add an issue for tracking purposes to
   refactor IMSC to conform to the content profile specification
   of TTML2 dependent on TTML2 profile updates. [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-252 - Add an issue for tracking
   purposes to refactor imsc to conform to the content profile
   specification of ttml2 dependent on ttml2 profile updates. [on
   Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2013-12-19].

   pal: expects no substantive change but may need to do some
   shuffling about.


   <trackbot> action-220 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Investigate
   actual css behavior further regarding whether line height of
   individual lines are affected by font size on line as opposed
   to maximum over paragraph -- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [19] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220

   pal: can close - next step is to review edits

   close action-220

   <trackbot> Closed action-220.


   <trackbot> action-243 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Edit
   dsinger's proposed wording which captures the intent. -- due
   2013-12-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243

   This action should also be reviewed by all prior to closure -
   leaving at Pending Review specifically to give Glenn Adams the



   <trackbot> action-246 -- Nigel Megitt to Take deliverables of
   draft charter to tag for scrutiny -- due 2013-11-28 -- OPEN


     [21] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/246

   nigel: still open for me, dependent on the revised wording.


   <trackbot> action-248 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Add atsc to the
   ttml charter -- due 2013-12-12 -- OPEN


     [22] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/248

   nigel: may be dependent on Mike to give ATSC details or plh can
   add something himself.

   plh: Others too?

   nigel: Yes, following Mark Vickers emails. E.g. HbbTV
   ... note that BBC is a member of HbbTV
   ... Mark Vickers still has this action.

   plh: note that anyone can comment during review of the LC

   action on nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU

   <trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register
   nicknames at

     [23] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/users%3E.

   <scribe> ACTION: nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU
   paragraph [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-253 - Send plh updated wording for
   the ebu paragraph [on Nigel Megitt - due 2013-12-19].

Due next week actions

Actions pending review


   <trackbot> action-180 -- Glenn Adams to Ensure that 10REC
   errata page is cleared after 10SE is published as REC. -- due
   2014-10-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [25] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180

   close action-180

   <trackbot> Closed action-180.


   <trackbot> action-203 -- Glenn Adams to Investigate 708 border
   style mapping issues with mike's help -- due 2013-09-26 --


     [26] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/203


   <trackbot> action-204 -- Glenn Adams to Add
   sideways{left,right} then close issue-159 -- due 2013-09-26 --


     [27] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/204


   <trackbot> issue-159 -- Text orientation in I18n script
   processing -- closed


     [28] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/159

   close action-204

   <trackbot> Closed action-204.


   <trackbot> action-207 -- Glenn Adams to Add round-down
   clarification to "closest" language, see issue-259 -- due
   2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [29] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/207


   <trackbot> issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review


     [30] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259

   <pal> yes

   <pal> let me check

   <pal> yes

   <pal> please carry on while I check


   <trackbot> action-208 -- Glenn Adams to Add note to issue-275
   linking to follow-on changelist which changed to 125% and made
   a note in ttml1 -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [31] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/208


   <trackbot> issue-275 -- Improve compatibility with line height
   'normal' and CSS/XSL-FO implementations. -- closed


     [32] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/275

   <plh> [33]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/11d2d5dcb5a1

     [33] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/11d2d5dcb5a1

   close action-208

   <trackbot> Closed action-208.


   <trackbot> action-214 -- Glenn Adams to Review cp008 and
   consider reformulating the recently added <animate> support to
   better align -- due 2013-10-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [34] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/214

   mijordan: may need to have longer to review this.


   <trackbot> action-219 -- Glenn Adams to Change to rec in ttml2,
   and add note to authors indicating that if author wants
   specific value, then they should specify specific value -- due
   2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [35] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/219


     [36] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/4b056bc52a0d

   <pal> yes still looking at 259

   <pal> what is 219?

   <pal> specific value of what?

   <pal> ok good

   <pal> so i think Mike Dolan will have input

   <pal> recommend not closing

   nigel: okay will leave at pending review


   <trackbot> action-220 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Investigate
   actual css behavior further regarding whether line height of
   individual lines are affected by font size on line as opposed
   to maximum over paragraph -- due 2013-10-24 -- CLOSED


     [37] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220

   nigel: we've covered this


   <trackbot> action-221 -- Glenn Adams to Double check spec
   language on css and xsl-fo around line height stacking strategy
   -- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [38] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/221

   <pal> re: 259, Glenn implemented something close but different
   than recommended.

   <pal> I would like to understand why

   <pal> before closing it

   <pal> great improvement though

   <pal> specifically, farthest from 0 != round-up

   <pal> for negative values

   nigel: we covered 221 already too, related to line height.
   Leaving at pending review as per 220


   <trackbot> issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review


     [39] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259

   <pal> sure

   nigel: pal was agreeing to my request to add a note to
   issue-259 stating this small variant to what Glenn implemented.
   ... i.e. to handle negative values as well as positive ones in


   <trackbot> action-233 -- Glenn Adams to Reach out to CSS WG to
   understand potential mapping of multi-row-align to CSS -- due
   2013-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [40] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/233

   <mijordan> Unfortunately, I have to break off now.

   plh: we may not have a quorum to deal with all these actions

   nigel: okay what can we do?


   <trackbot> action-164 -- Jerry Smith to Investigate interop
   issues using CSS familyName constructs -- due 2013-12-05 --


     [41] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164

   jdsmith: has talked to Sean and is still investigating. Need
   Glenn to discuss further.

   plh: Glenn said that XML already has an escape mechanism so we
   don't need the CSS one too. The drawback is that you can't just
   transfer the text value into a CSS parser.

   jdsmith: I've isolated a contact in MS and will follow up.

   plh: Without any change an implementation has to de-escape the
   XML font family name, then use CSS escaping rules to transfer
   to a CSS parser. There's a burden both ways.
   ... there's a bit more code required on authoring tools for
   anyone generating TTML if we change the current mechanism.

   nigel: Is this a request to restrict the fontFamily names to
   those that do not need additional escaping?

   jdsmith: I just need to check the status on this.


   <trackbot> action-249 -- Glenn Adams to Follow up on
   action-220, possibly opening new issue -- due 2013-12-12 --


     [42] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/249

   close action-249

   <trackbot> Closed action-249.


   <trackbot> action-141 -- Nigel Megitt to Call for Action to
   identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. --
   due 2013-02-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW


     [43] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141


   <trackbot> issue-162 -- update standalone profile documents --


     [44] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/162


     [45] http://www.w3.org/mid/CECF5778.163CC%252525nigel.megitt%2540bbc.co.uk


     [46] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Dec/0036.html

   plh: happy to accept the initial proposal.
   ... See if anyone complains!

   nigel: that would create a problem we couldn't solve.


   <pal> I am available

   <pal> i would ask Glenn and Mike

   nigel: Availability for next week?

   <pal> directly

   nigel: I will confirm with Glenn and Mike too
   ... looking ahead I propose not to have a meeting on 26th
   December or 2nd January
   ... next week's meeting will happen unless I notify otherwise

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU
   paragraph [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: pal to add an issue for tracking purposes to
   refactor IMSC to conform to the content profile specification
   of TTML2 dependent on TTML2 profile updates. [recorded in

   [End of minutes]

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