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RE: definition of "unlinkable data" in the Compliance spec

From: Rob van Eijk <rob@blaeu.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 00:08:02 +0200
To: <public-tracking@w3.org>
Message-ID: <4616ca4df3c0f3e0235f2b74f863b6ba@xs4all.nl>
>>  I don't believe the goal here is an absolutist one
> (aka "completed destruction of identifiers") and that is why
> "commercially reasonable" is the appropriate outcome.

But Shane, do you share the view that a commercially reasonable outcome 
is still a pseudonomous outcome?


Shane Wiley schreef op 2012-09-21 19:16:
> Ed,
> I disagree with the concept of "easy to recover" as I'm not 
> suggesting
> hashing the individual octets but rather the entire IP Address (not a
> single octet or individualized octet hashing) - especially as you
> apply this to IPv6. With the appropriate level of access to raw and
> hashed datasets, the necessary tools, and the intent, some
> anonymization schemes can be hacked (dictionary attacks being the 
> most
> straight forward). I don't believe the goal here is an absolutist one
> (aka "completed destruction of identifiers") and that is why
> "commercially reasonable" is the appropriate outcome.
> - Shane
> FROM: Ed Felten [mailto:ed@felten.com]
> SENT: Friday, September 21, 2012 10:01 AM
> TO: Shane Wiley
> CC: Grimmelmann, James; <public-tracking@w3.org>
> SUBJECT: Re: definition of "unlinkable data" in the Compliance spec
> By the way, hashing IP addresses (with or without salting) does not
> render them unlinkable. After hashing, it's easy to recovery the
> original IP address. The story is similar for other types of unique
> identifiers--there are ways to get to unlinkability, but hashing by
> itself won't be enough.
> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Shane Wiley <wileys@yahoo-inc.com
> [1]> wrote:
> <Ed - apologies for not getting back to you sooner - I was on 
> vacation
> for the past week.>
> James,
> I like your approach the best and it was this perspective I was
> intending when writing the text that Ed is questioning.
> The goal is to find the middle-ground between complete destruction of
> data and an unlinkable state that still allows for longitudinal
> consistency for analytical purposes BUT CANNOT be linked back to a
> production system such that the data could be used to modify a single
> user's experience.
> For example, performing a one-way secret hash (salted hash) on
> identifiers (Cookie IDs, IP Addresses) and storing the resulting
> dataset in a logically/physically separate location from production
> data with strict access controls, policies, and employee education
> would meet the definition of "unlinkable" I'm aiming for.
> - Shane
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grimmelmann, James [mailto:James.Grimmelmann@nyls.edu [2]]
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 8:14 AM
> To: Lauren Gelman
> Cc: Ed Felten; <public-tracking@w3.org [3]>
> Subject: Re: definition of "unlinkable data" in the Compliance spec
> I really like Lauren's suggestion. My only concern is that
> "reasonably" and "reasonable" have so many different meanings in 
> legal
> settings that it could be ambiguous. Sometimes an action is
> "reasonable" if a person who is ethical and cautious would do it: 
> it's
> not reasonable to leave sharp tools lying around in a children's play
> area, or to invest a trust fund in marshmallows. Sometimes it refers
> to what a rational non-expert would believe about the subject, so a
> court will uphold a jury verdict unless "no reasonable jury" could
> have reached the conclusion it did. Sometimes it's about the norms 
> and
> expectations of an industry. An auction might need to be conducted in
> a "commercially reasonable" way, which means for example giving 
> enough
> notice that there will be real competitive bidding, but not spending
> more than the property is worth.
> I think this last sense is the most appropriate one in context. So
> perhaps something like "data that cannot be associated with an
> identifiable person or user agent through commercially reasonable
> means." That is, the question would be whether a normal business with
> normal resources and motivations would consider reidentifying the 
> data
> to be feasible.
> James
> --------------------------------------------------
> James Grimmelmann Professor of Law
> New York Law School (212) 431-2864 [4]
> 185 West Broadway james.grimmelmann@nyls.edu
> [5]<mailto:james.grimmelmann@nyls.edu [6]>
> New York, NY 10013 http://james.grimmelmann.net [7]
> On Sep 20, 2012, at 7:22 PM, Lauren Gelman <gelman@blurryedge.com
> [8]<mailto:gelman@blurryedge.com [9]>> wrote:
> Unlinkable data is data that cannot reasonably be associated with an
> identifiable person or user agent.
> Lauren Gelman
> BlurryEdge Strategies
> 415-627-8512 [10]
> On Sep 18, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Ed Felten wrote:
> Sorry to repost this, but nobody has answered any of my questions
> about Option 1 for the unlinkability definition.
> Note to proponents of Option 1 (if any): If nobody can explain or
> clarify Option 1, that will presumably be used as an argument against
> Option 1 when decision time comes.
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ed Felten <ed@felten.com [11]<mailto:ed@felten.com [12]>>
> Date: Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:03 PM
> Subject: definition of "unlinkable data" in the Compliance spec
> To: "<public-tracking@w3.org [13]<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org
> [14]>>" <public-tracking@w3.org [15]<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org
> [16]>>
> I have some questions about the Option 1 definition of "Unlinkable
> Data", section 3.6.1 in the Compliance spec editor's draft. The
> definition is as follows [fixing typos]:
> A party renders a dataset unlinkable when it:
> 1. takes commercially reasonable steps to de-identify data such that
> there is confidence that it contains information which could not be
> linked to a specific user, user agent, or device in a production
> environment [2. and 3. aren't relevant to my questions]
> I have several questions about what this means.
> (A) Why does the definition talk about a process of making data
> unlinkable, instead of directly defining what it means for data to be
> unlinkable? Some data needs to be processed to make it unlinkable, 
> but
> some data is unlinkable from the start. The definition should speak 
> to
> both, even though unlinkable-from-the-start data hasn't gone through
> any kind of process. Suppose FirstCorp collects data X; SecondCorp
> collects X+Y but then runs a process that discards Y to leave it with
> only X; and ThirdCorp collects X+Y+Z but then minimizes away Y+Z to
> end up with X. Shouldn't these three datasets be treated the
> same--because they are the same X--despite having been through
> different processes, or no process at all?
> (B) Why "commercially reasonable" rather than just "reasonable"? The
> term "reasonable" already takes into account all relevant factors. 
> Can
> somebody give an example of something that would qualify as
> "commercially reasonable" but not "reasonable", or vice versa? If 
> not,
> "commercially" only makes the definition harder to understand.
> (C) "there is confidence" seems to raise two questions. First, who is
> it that needs to be confident? Second, can the confidence be just an
> unsupported gut feeling of optimism, or does there need to be some
> valid reason for confidence? Presumably the intent is that the party
> holding the data has justified confidence that the data cannot be
> linked, but if so it might be better to spell that out.
> (D) Why "it contains information which could not be linked" rather
> than the simpler "it could not be linked"? Do the extra words add any
> meaning?
> (E) What does "in a production environment" add? If the goal is to
> rule out results demonstrated in a research environment, I doubt this
> language would accomplish that goal, because all of the
> re-identification research I know of required less than a production
> environment. If the goal is to rule out linking approaches that 
> aren't
> at all practical, some other language would probably be better.
> (I don't have questions about the meaning of Option 2; which 
> shouldn't
> be interpreted as a preference for or against Option 2.)
> Links:
> ------
> [1] mailto:wileys@yahoo-inc.com
> [2] mailto:James.Grimmelmann@nyls.edu
> [3] mailto:public-tracking@w3.org
> [4] http://roundcube.xs4all.nl/tel:%28212%29%20431-2864
> [5] mailto:james.grimmelmann@nyls.edu
> [6] mailto:james.grimmelmann@nyls.edu
> [7] http://james.grimmelmann.net
> [8] mailto:gelman@blurryedge.com
> [9] mailto:gelman@blurryedge.com
> [10] http://roundcube.xs4all.nl/tel:415-627-8512
> [11] mailto:ed@felten.com
> [12] mailto:ed@felten.com
> [13] mailto:public-tracking@w3.org
> [14] mailto:public-tracking@w3.org
> [15] mailto:public-tracking@w3.org
> [16] mailto:public-tracking@w3.org
Received on Friday, 21 September 2012 22:08:38 UTC

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