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Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54

From: Geoff Gieron - AdTruth <ggieron@adtruth.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:40:31 +0000
To: JC Cannon <jccannon@microsoft.com>, Jeffrey Chester <jeff@democraticmedia.org>
CC: John Simpson <john@consumerwatchdog.org>, Jonathan Robert Mayer <jmayer@stanford.edu>, Justin Brookman <justin@cdt.org>, "public-tracking@w3.org" <public-tracking@w3.org>
Message-ID: <CB5EA588.E3E0%ggieron@adtruth.com>
JC  you raise a valid point on tracking vs social sharing.  One thing I would like to point out about this though is how logged in entities like Facebook already supersede existing browser solutions, such as Private Browsing (notice how Facebook still knows it is you on sites outside their network when you are suppose to be incognito to all entities).

So based on your ascertainment  I do agree that DNT should not disrupt the value of social sharing when you are logged in and remained logged AND Private Browsing/Incognito Mode should be what cuts even this level of detection by these types of services regardless of login. However  we are not standardizing Private Browsing/Incognito Mode so I'm concerned that the ability by a few customer facing companies like Google, Yahoo, Facebook, Amazon, AOL and Microsoft essentially may have the ability to completely work around all existing browser based solution offered to a consumer.

Is my concern valid to you?

Geoff Gieron
Business Development Strategist

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From: JC Cannon <jccannon@microsoft.com<mailto:jccannon@microsoft.com>>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:29:21 +0000
To: Jeffrey Chester <jeff@democraticmedia.org<mailto:jeff@democraticmedia.org>>
Cc: John Simpson <john@consumerwatchdog.org<mailto:john@consumerwatchdog.org>>, Jonathan Robert Mayer <jmayer@stanford.edu<mailto:jmayer@stanford.edu>>, Justin Brookman <justin@cdt.org<mailto:justin@cdt.org>>, "public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>" <public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54
Resent-From: <public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:30:10 +0000

Im not stating that data can be collected on me. Im only stating that during a logged-in state a social site may personalize my experience based on my settings on the social site. The social site does not have the right to capture my browsing habits or process any data on me unless I interact with its widget.


From: Jeffrey Chester [mailto:jeff@democraticmedia.org]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:16 AM
To: JC Cannon
Cc: John Simpson; Jonathan Robert Mayer; Justin Brookman; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>
Subject: Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54

Let's have a further discussion on this.  Can you say what data can be collected from a user when DNT:1 is on as they access social services?

Jeffrey Chester
Center for Digital Democracy
1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 550
Washington, DC 20009

On Feb 13, 2012, at 12:09 PM, JC Cannon wrote:


I disagree with your position, because I would still want that feature if Im logged in and have DNT:1 enabled. This is part of the concern I have about making decisions for consumers that they may not want. If I can disable the article annotation by logging off from the social site, why bundle it with DNT taking away my flexibility?


From: Jeffrey Chester [mailto:jeff@democraticmedia.org]<mailto:[mailto:jeff@democraticmedia.org]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 6:46 AM
To: JC Cannon
Cc: John Simpson; Jonathan Robert Mayer; Justin Brookman; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>
Subject: Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54


DNT:1 serves as a form of granular privacy protection.  If one has DNT:1 on, they don't want tracking process working--even if it means they can't find out their friends enjoyed reading your latest book!  Happy to discuss.

I would like to drill into this a little further. How would this apply to a logged in state? If Im logged into a social site and reading an article I would be interested to know if people I trust from that social site enjoyed the article or not without necessarily letting people know that I viewed the article, unless I select the share button. I dont want to have to enable tracking just to see if my friends liked the article.


From: John Simpson [mailto:john@consumerwatchdog.org]<mailto:[mailto:john@consumerwatchdog.org]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:53 AM
To: Jeffrey Chester
Cc: Jonathan Robert Mayer; Justin Brookman; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>
Subject: Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54

I agree that when a site acts as a third party it MUST not engage in targeting based on data gathered when it was a 1st party if DNT is enabled.

On Feb 8, 2012, at 8:43 AM, Jeffrey Chester wrote:

I don't think if DNT is enabled a third party should be able to engage in profile-based targeting that they have collected as first party, as Justin perhaps as proposed.  That would weaken user intent on DNT.

Jeffrey Chester
Center for Digital Democracy
1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 550
Washington, DC 20009

On Feb 8, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Jonathan Robert Mayer wrote:

In the interest of clarity, I recommend we make two ISSUEs from ISSUE-54.

1) What can a first party do on its own website with provided information? I completely agree with Shane that this falls into the current first party proposal, and I expect we'll get consensus and close the ISSUE quickly.

2) What can a first party do with submitted information when it's a third party? We've already heard a range of views on this; I expect lengthy discussion and perspectives from many stakeholders before we close the ISSUE.

On Feb 8, 2012, at 7:20 AM, Justin Brookman <justin@cdt.org<mailto:justin@cdt.org>> wrote:
I think Sean's restatement of the issue is a bit ambiguous.  The key question is not whether a first party can alter its own websites and advertising on those sites based on data it collected as a first party.  It's about whether they can then leverage that data when they're in a third-party environment.

I was tasked with writing up language on this in Brussels, but upon reflection, my vision is already allowed for in the text:  a third-party may customize content or advertising on other sites based on data it had collected as a first-party.  Thus, Yahoo! can serve ads on the New York Times based on what I had done on the Yahoo! site (or registration information I had provided to Yahoo!) and Facebook can tell me what my friends like in a social widget when I go to the WashingtonPost.com<http://WashingtonPost.com/> --- as long as neither collects the fact that I went to NYT or WaPo (apart from exceptions like ad reporting, fraud, analytics) and certainly does not add that information to a profile about me.  The language in the draft currently allows for this.  However, I will try to put together some non-normative language on this today to make it clear.  I have heard the argument that this unduly favors first-party sites who have a lot of user data, but I also think the privacy implications are dramatically reduced when ads are influenced based on data that a party already has about you.

Shane, you had seemed to disagree with this idea in Brussels, so if you want to put forward a countersuggestion that's fine.  Alternatively, Tom had disagreed on one of the calls that Facebook should be allowed to personalize content based on data it had collected as a first-party, so he may want to proffer another suggestion.  I could see a stronger argument against allowing Yahoo! to use passively-collected data about what I read on the Yahoo! site rather than using affirmatively provided info, but I personally wouldn't draw the line there.  It's also possible this issue is currently being discussed elsewhere on the mailing list, but I have not remotely been able to keep up.

Justin Brookman

Director, Consumer Privacy

Center for Democracy & Technology

1634 I Street NW, Suite 1100

Washington, DC 20006

tel 202.407.8812

fax 202.637.0969





On 2/6/2012 10:10 AM, Shane Wiley wrote:
And the proposed answer, YES, as this appears to capture the 1st party exception cleanly and we have other statements that disallow a 1st party from sharing information with 3rd parties when DNT:1.

- Shane

From: Sean Harvey [mailto:sharvey@google.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 5:27 PM
To: public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org> Group WG
Subject: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54

Hi all, apologies for the delay in submitting my action item.

ISSUE-54 is intended to get at the question of whether or not a first party is allowed to leverage their own data, including registration data provided by the user at a previous time, in the context of a DNT header being ON.

Keep in mind I am not intending to provide an answer, only to more appropriately rename the topic.

In light of this I propose the Issue be renamed:

"Can first parties customize their own websites or advertising based on their own user data when a DNT header is ON?"

John M. Simpson
Consumer Advocate
Consumer Watchdog
1750 Ocean Park Blvd. ,Suite 200
Santa Monica, CA,90405
Tel: 310-392-7041
Cell: 310-292-1902

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Received on Monday, 13 February 2012 18:42:26 UTC

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