Re: Re ISSUE-26: When a 3rd party becomes a 1st party

On Dec 15, 2011, at 8:41 , Shane Wiley wrote:

> David,
>  
> I share your view on this point but obviously not “all” of us do.  J
>  
> Thus far, the general consensus has been that an impression of a 3rd party widget must be treated as a 3rd party situation (seen but not touched, so to speak).  If there is “meaningful interaction” (not just a mouse over), then this should be treated as a 1st party situation if several additional conditions are met: 1) prominent branding of the 1st party (in some cases, such as the FB Like button, I would argue this already has prominent branding without saying “Facebook”) and 2) a link to that parties home page / privacy policy.

OK, the first makes sense.  The user must be aware that they are transitioning from one site to another.  I think users that click on FB 'like' are probably aware that they are interacting with FB :-).


The second is a bit circuitous, isn't it?  I assume the point is that I might not wish to visit the site before reading the privacy policy.  But on the reasonable assumption that they self-host their privacy policy, that may be … tricky.

>  
> Jonathan and I led a detailed discussion on this topic several months ago – and it’s based on that string that I draw the conclusion of “general consensus”.
>  
> - Shane
>  
> From: Dave Singer [mailto:singer@apple.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:34 AM
> To: Shane Wiley
> Cc: Jeffrey Chester; Bryan Sullivan; public-tracking@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Re ISSUE-26: When a 3rd party becomes a 1st party
>  
>  
> On Dec 15, 2011, at 8:10 , Shane Wiley wrote:
> 
> 
> Jeffrey,
>  
> Do you have data to back-up the “user expectations” claims you’ve presented?  I believe when users click on the FB “Like” button they every expectation this is going to set the “Like” for that particular item on their Facebook page.  Do you have information suggesting users that click on the FB Like button do not have this expectation?
>  
> I think we're all in agreement that if they *interact* with content, the content they interact with is first party.
>  
> However, when I visit New York Times, though I don't mind NYT knowing I visited, knowing who I am, and indeed if they need to, remembering I visited, the same does not apply to Facebook, Twitter, or any other site that the NYT chose to send my way, and I didn't choose.
>  
> So, they remain 3rd party until the user chooses to interact, IM (ok, maybe not very H in this instance)O.
> 
> 
>  
> - Shane
>  
> From: Jeffrey Chester [mailto:jeff@democraticmedia.org] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:03 AM
> To: Bryan Sullivan
> Cc: public-tracking@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Re ISSUE-26: When a 3rd party becomes a 1st party
>  
>  
> I think granting First party status to a [Third Party] widget embedded on a site needs to be viewed in terms of user expectations.  They are likely not to understand that that widget or some other syndicated application has its own data collection practices, different privacy policies, etc.  For a user to have meaningful DNT, such widgets should be regarded as Third Party, and hence the DNT signal should be in effect.  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Jeffrey Chester
> Center for Digital Democracy
> 1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 550
> Washington, DC 20009
> www.democraticmedia.org
> www.digitalads.org
> 202-986-2220
>  
> On Dec 14, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Bryan Sullivan wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> In http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-compliance.html#third-party-compliance:
> 
> The statement "In addition, a domain that hosts a third-party visible
> widget or window that is clearly identified and branded as being
> controlled and operated by a party separate and distinct from the
> first party becomes a first party itself when a user engages in
> "meaningful interaction" with the window or widget." is unclear.
> 
> I believe this is intending to say: "In addition, a third-party domain
> providing content presented in a visible widget or window, clearly
> identified and branded as being controlled and operated by a party
> separate and distinct from the first party, becomes a first party
> itself when a user engages in "meaningful interaction" with the window
> or widget."
> 
> With this meaning, the intent of what I was expressing on the call can
> be better understood. DNT should not prevent sites from providing
> personalized service, if the site is acting as a 1st party in any
> context (as the site directly visited by the user, or a 3rd party site
> with content hosted on the visited site).
> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> Bryan Sullivan
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Dave Singer
> Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple
>  
> singer@apple.com
>  
>  

Dave Singer
Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple

singer@apple.com