- From: Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:33:14 +0100
- To: public-talent-signal@w3.org
- Message-ID: <23e0a86e-5587-5a70-7384-4334a29819a1@pjjk.co.uk>
Hello all,
I would like to prod this discussion for further input, just because I
know that several people (including me) on this list have been away from
work since I first raised it.
So far the message that I'm seeing is that the simple approach I showed
in the email (below) and on the wiki
<https://www.w3.org/community/talent-signal/wiki/Example_of_how_to_refer_skills_requirements_to_competency_definitions>
[1] is adequate, and that while there are complexities that may be
represented elsewhere, the existing schema.org property skills
<https://schema.org/skills> is adequate for relating any type of
required competence to a job posting.
I'm interested in hearing more opinions regarding this, whether agreeing
or not with that approach.
Regards, Phil
1.
https://www.w3.org/community/talent-signal/wiki/Example_of_how_to_refer_skills_requirements_to_competency_definitions
<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fcommunity%2Ftalent-signal%2Fwiki%2FExample_of_how_to_refer_skills_requirements_to_competency_definitions&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=fJJKvoSDgelDu0%2FGO%2BIjPAbZEHbLF1yQetBdldSs6MQ%3D&reserved=0>
2. https://schema.org/skills
On 04/07/2019 17:50, Nadeau, Gregory wrote:
>
> Hello All –
>
> From my perspective, delineating distinctions between knowledge,
> skills, abilities is mostly an exercise in semantics and is not
> necessary for information modelling. The more critical functional
> distinction is between:
>
> * An *achievement* – something that more than one person could
> demonstrate (examples include: SKA, competency, credential, etc)
> * An *assertion* – a specific instance by an issuer about a
> recipient (learner/worker) regarding the achievement
>
> Other terms could be used. This distinction aligns with the IMS
> Global Open Badge and new draft candidate Comprehensive Learner Record
> specification.
>
> g.
>
> **
>
>
>
> *Greg Nadeau
> *Manager
>
> 781-370-1017
>
> gnadeau@pcgus.com <mailto:gnadeau@pcgus.com>
>
> publicconsultinggroup.com
>
> **
>
> This message (including any attachments) contains confidential
> information intended for a specific individual and purpose and is
> protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should
> delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action
> based on it, is strictly prohibited.
>
> *From:* Fritz Ray <fritley@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 3, 2019 9:37 PM
> *To:* public-talent-signal@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Talent-Signal] relating competencies to job postings
>
> I have decided to re-open the can of worms, because it is a holiday
> weekend, and discussion is what the holidays are about.
>
> There are a constellation of objects and relationships that, I
> believe, represent some clarity when it comes to relating a number of
> these things. Let me know if I am making some fundamental error here.
>
> Definitions: First, there is task itself. This represents a repeatable
> thing that can be done by an individual. A
> competence/competency represents the capability of an individual to
> perform a task. Demonstrating a task implies competence and the
> ability to employ KSAs.
>
> KSAs are not directly demonstrable, because skills, knowledge, and
> abilities -- in their latent form -- are not expressible. They can
> only be demonstrated when performing a model task or representative
> task -- then ipso facto one is demonstrating competence or a
> competency, because one is employing a combination of KSAs to perform
> a task.
>
> ----- Examples -----
>
>
> So, to call something a skill or knowledge or ability is to speak
> about latent notions -- The knowledge of Pi to 25 places is latent.
> Reciting Pi to 25 places is a task. A person's capability to recite Pi
> to 25 places is a competency, because it necessarily employs a
> combination of KSAs -- breathing, memory, sequencing, the numbers, the
> number system, speech, etc to perform a task, reciting Pi to 25
> places, in a context that requires those KSAs -- A classroom, a bus, a
> job interview.
>
> The skill of sharpening a pencil is latent, bottled up in the human
> (or machine, but never mind that) brain and spine and whatever other
> parts. Sharpening a pencil is a task. The competence to sharpen a
> pencil employs all manner of other KSAs that perform the task and
> create an outcome.
>
> The ability to stand is only provable through the act or task of
> standing.... Repeat explanation...
>
> Therefore, *I think the labels skills is fine*. I believe skills are
> separate from knowledge or natural abilities or acquired abilities, so
> there may be something there -- but putting a competency in the place
> of a skill is not wrong per se. One (a skill) identifies a context
> free and task free latent capability that may or may not be deployable
> in other contexts, the other (a competency) is more explicit and
> grounded in task and context.
>
>
> ---- Continued nannerings -----
>
> Likewise, a Learning Objective is only expressible through a
> competency because an individual's having learned all they can learn
> (whether that involves performing the objective task or not) has a
> competence gap between what they learned or did in the learning
> environment and what they will do in the target environment. The KSAs
> employed demonstrating that competency in the "field" as it were are
> probably different from the classroom and lab environments. These
> contextual gaps don't exist when we talk about the knowledge it takes
> to remember how to spell quixotic, but the context matters suddenly
> when done on a stage with a bright light at a spelling bee.
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 4:24 AM Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk
> <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I know that many of you are about start a holiday; and after that
> I will be on vacation. So this may not be the best time to start a
> conversation, but I want to post this now to see what I come back
> to...
>
> One of the issues we have listed is how to refer skills
> requirements to competency definitions in a standard framework.
>
> I have drafted on the wiki a straw man for a simple way of doing
> this
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fcommunity%2Ftalent-signal%2Fwiki%2FExample_of_how_to_refer_skills_requirements_to_competency_definitions&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=fJJKvoSDgelDu0%2FGO%2BIjPAbZEHbLF1yQetBdldSs6MQ%3D&reserved=0>
> [1] with minimal change to what currently exists in schema.org
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=19XCZTOxfCuDvTAXObHqsszSBTy54XRKOkHoDvRVs9o%3D&reserved=0>.
> It requires only that the expected type for one property be changed.
>
> {
>
> "@context": "http://schema.org/"
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=hGZM%2B3yAKn4GivtFaXhiG9nZ5Wdz%2Fb%2BNqVvbTC%2FTWYs%3D&reserved=0>,
>
> "@type": "JobPosting",
>
> "title": "Junior software developer",
>
> "skills": {
>
> "@type": "Definedterm",
>
> "termCode": "K0016",
>
> "description": "Knowledge of computer programming principles",
>
> "inDefinedTermSet": {
>
> "@type": "DefinedTermSet",
>
> "name": "National Initiative for Cybersecurity Education
> (NICE) Cybersecurity Workforce Framework",
>
> "url": "https://doi.org/10.6028/NIST.SP.800-181"
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.6028%2FNIST.SP.800-181&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=GSojtCwQ%2BoMlLRqzT0IGnlvfPadELhDBUu%2BVBPjH6oM%3D&reserved=0>,
>
> "publisher": {
>
> "@type": "Organization",
>
> "name": "National Institute of Standards and Technology"
>
> },
>
> "datePublished": "2017-08"
>
> }
>
> }
>
> }
>
> Points to note / consider
>
> * this doesn't attempt to fully describe the competency, that's
> the job of the framework. Furthermore this approach is pretty much
> agnostic to the format used to represent the framework--I mean, it
> would be nice if a linked-data friendly format were used and we
> can then link properly to its @id but this example is a pdf.
>
> * is there any other key information that is required to identify
> the competence being referred to?
>
> * I've used the existing schema.org
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=19XCZTOxfCuDvTAXObHqsszSBTy54XRKOkHoDvRVs9o%3D&reserved=0>
> property skills to cover a competency that is defined as
> 'knowledge'. I know the KSA approach to competencies, but also
> that other aspects can be added (tools/technologies, attitudes) an
> other approaches taken. Can we live with lumping these together
> under the label skills, or do we have to look into creating a
> property with a different name? We will be somewhat constrained by
> existing schema.org
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=19XCZTOxfCuDvTAXObHqsszSBTy54XRKOkHoDvRVs9o%3D&reserved=0>
> usage. Also I think that trying to separate out the different
> aspects of competence would cause difficulties when implemented in
> the non-specialist schema.org
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=19XCZTOxfCuDvTAXObHqsszSBTy54XRKOkHoDvRVs9o%3D&reserved=0>
> context. Remember, the competence framework is where the
> information should be provided about what aspect of competence
> (knowledge, skill or ability) is being referred to.
>
> Best wishes to all celebrating the 4 July.
>
> Phil
>
> 1.
> https://www.w3.org/community/talent-signal/wiki/Example_of_how_to_refer_skills_requirements_to_competency_definitions
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fcommunity%2Ftalent-signal%2Fwiki%2FExample_of_how_to_refer_skills_requirements_to_competency_definitions&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=fJJKvoSDgelDu0%2FGO%2BIjPAbZEHbLF1yQetBdldSs6MQ%3D&reserved=0>
>
> --
>
> Phil Barker
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.pjjk.net%2Fphil&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C4cc0f23be87c4eb1088008d700202f49%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=%2FBipLxOJWK8aRBqXTZb21wPlDtx8XyVgRhw39R9dfeE%3D&reserved=0>.
> http://people.pjjk.net/phil
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--
Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk>: a cooperative consultancy for
innovation in education technology.
PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance learning;
information systems for education.
CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in
England number OC399090
PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company,
number SC569282.
Received on Wednesday, 31 July 2019 11:33:42 UTC