- From: Merrilea Mayo <merrileamayo@gmail.com>
- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:23:42 -0400
- To: public-talent-signal@w3.org
- Message-ID: <d05904d7-19a1-e7ab-a843-6a73f7fcf486@gmail.com>
We are actually running into the same issue in developing competency-based learner profiles. For right now, we plan to use the following: * If not externally validated, issuer is self. * If externally validated, then the issuer is noted. Part of the reason I'm in these discussions is to see if a better solution emerges. Merrilea On 8/20/2019 10:59 AM, Tyszko, Jason wrote: > > Everyone’s comments have been super helpful. Thank you for helping me > understand the nuances. And I believe Greg is right, a lot of this > has to do with semantic disconnect more than anything. I guess this > is bound to happen when you have non-technical people in the group. > Thank you for bearing with me. > > Another thought I had—not sure how immediately relevant to the work at > hand so we can parking lot this—is how do we deal with competencies > that are self-declared by the individual? For example, if someone > wanted to organize their e-portfolio or resume and make it > competency-based, but also based on a data standard, what would they > be considered to be? I understand they can pull in data from > organization that awarded, instilled, or validated a competency, but > if they self-declare, can that be captured as well? Our T3 work will > be taking us in this direction which is why I ask. > > Jason > > *From:*Stuart Sutton <stuartasutton@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2019 10:52 AM > *To:* Tyszko, Jason <jtyszko@USChamber.com> > *Cc:* Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>; public-talent-signal@w3.org > *Subject:* Re: Domain sketch > > Jason, yes, you describe well the status on the ground. I think the > key is in phrases like your "recognize and certify 10 competencies > attained". To be of any value and to be communicated to others, these > _recognitions_ take the form of some kind of _tangible, and hopefully > verifiable, assertion_–i.e., award of a certification, badge/open > badge, micro-credential etc. For example, in my courses at the > University of Washington, I could have offered badges for successful > completion of various logical units of the class or even specific > competencies. I would not be _directly awarding competencies_ but > rather awarding _tangible recognitions of achievement_ (in other > words, some form of (earned) credential). So, in the end, the holder > of a UW Bachelor of Science in Informatics (credential) also holds an > array of more granular open badges, certifications etc (all > credentials). For a non-completer of the BS in Informatics, they > nevertheless walk away with an array of these more granular > credentials (tangible recognitions). What you describe, Jason, is this > movement toward recognition of more discrete units of achievement in > all sorts of formal and informal contexts. > > So, what's the big difference between an organization directly > awarding competencies and awarding tangible recognition of achievement > of competencies? It's quite significant in domain modeling. While an > organization may _instill_ a competency through a learning opportunity > or _validate_ its attainment in a tangible form (however attained) > through some form of assessment, that organization does not directly > _award_ the competency. > > Stuart > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:20 AM Tyszko, Jason <jtyszko@uschamber.com > <mailto:jtyszko@uschamber.com>> wrote: > > Phil, > > If I may, I think where Julie and I are coming from is > organizations like universities and employers are trying to get in > the business of directly awarding competencies. In this way, > someone could complete an assignment, course, or assessment and be > recognized as having a competency without having anything to do > with a credential. For example, a company can provide a training > program as part of its onboarding process and recognize and > certify 10 competencies attained. No credential may be needed to > bundle them. This is the environment we are building towards. At > the very least, the work we are pursuing here should not preclude > those options in the future. Does that help? > > Jason > > *From:* Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk > <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2019 6:10 AM > *To:* public-talent-signal@w3.org <mailto:public-talent-signal@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: Domain sketch > > Thanks Julie, that is useful. > > What I am struggling with is what it means to "award a competency" > as opposed to "award a credential that recognizes competency". > > And, yes your unpacking from my email is useful, but I would > unpack further: "A student may not fulfill all the requirements > for a credential but still be eligible for a credential that > recognizes any competency that they have demonstrated" > > There may be some difference in understanding of what a competency > is, I'm trying to write something to get to the bottom of that. > > Phil > > On 19/08/2019 19:17, Julie Uranis wrote: > > Hi everyone- > > I’ve been lurking but Jason’s email inspired me to chime in. > I’m +1’ing his comment, that is if his interpretation of “A > credential can be offered by an EducationalOrganization but a > competency cannot be” is accurate. I share his concern with > this statement. > > EducationalOrganization must be able to offer both credentials > and competencies understanding that they can be of same class. > To echo and append Jason, this is both the way the field is > moving and is a reality for the millions of students that > leave higher education without credentials but with > competencies. Being inclusive of these conditions would fit > with known use cases and student characteristics. > > To pull in your last email, “Organizations can offer > assessments that assess competencies, and if passed lead to > the award of credentials.” I think we need to parse this a bit > more. Organizations can offer assessments that assess > competencies that may or may not lead to a credential – and > the student may never complete the full credential, so the > credential needs to be recognized as an item unto itself. > > If this interpretation is wrong and my email unhelpful I’m > happy to return to my lurker status. J > > Julie > > *From:* Tyszko, Jason [mailto:jtyszko@USChamber.com] > *Sent:* Monday, August 19, 2019 2:02 PM > *To:* public-talent-signal@w3.org > <mailto:public-talent-signal@w3.org> > *Subject:* RE: Domain sketch > > Phil, > > I’m coming in late to the conversation, and I’m probably not > understanding that context, but I thought I would chime in > anyway, just in case. The statement below caught my attention: > > A credential can be offered by an EducationalOrganization but > a competency cannot be. > > Are we suggesting that, per the way schemas are currently > setup, an EducationalOrganization cannot offer competencies in > lieu of credentials? If so, that strikes me as potentially > limiting and not necessarily reflective of where the field is > going. > > In T3 and in our other work, employers, for instance, are > increasingly interested in competency-based hiring outside of > credentialing. Competencies are increasingly needed to stand > alone so employer, education providers, workforce trainers, > and others, can offer competencies as part of a learner or > worker record. This is also consistent with where the > university registrars are going in the U.S. From where the > Chamber stands, credentials can include competencies, but > competencies are not exclusively found in a credential. > > Not sure if my comments add value given where the conversation > was going, but in order for us to support innovations in the > talent marketplace, we need a data infrastructure that makes > this distinction clear. Happy to walk this back if I’m off track. > > Jason > > *From:* Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk > <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>> > *Sent:* Monday, August 19, 2019 1:44 PM > *To:* public-talent-signal@w3.org > <mailto:public-talent-signal@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: Domain sketch > > On 19/08/2019 18:19, Nadeau, Gregory wrote: > > My understanding of CTDL is that it only models > Credentials as Achievement Descriptions, and does not > include models for PII Assertion Records. > > True, but the addition of hasCredential > <https://schema.org/hasCredential> as a property of Person in > schema.org <http://schema.org> is a significant change from that. > > While a relativist view could assert that the any > distinction could be semantic and change in context, I > continue to assert that there is a hard logical > distinction between Achievement and Assertion, > > True, but they can be modeled with similar terms. There is a > hard logical distinction between a Person and a Book, but they > both have a name. There is a logical distinction between a > TextBook and a Course, but many of their properties and > attributes are the same. Achievement and Assertion can be > modeled as different profiles drawn from the same term set. > > but not between Competency and Credential. > > While it is true that Credentials can have Competencies, > they are in fact the same class of entity and often have > recursive associations between them. > > With the simple distinction that a credential can require a > competency but a competency cannot require a credential. > > A credential can be offered by an EducationalOrganization but > a competency cannot be. > > Outside of learner records, credentials and competencies are > quite different. > > Phil > > In short: > > Achievement Description types include Credentials, > Competencies, Skills. While historically different in > some contexts, increasingly these terms are blurred and > there is no logical/structural difference between them. > > Achievement Assertions can refer to Achievement > Descriptions and include specific PII information about > the Learner and Issuer, and can include specific instance > information like Evidence, Endorsement, Result, and > Verification. > > Greg Nadeau > > Chair, IMS Global CLR > > Chair, IEEE CM4LTS > > *From:* Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk> > <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk> > *Sent:* Monday, August 19, 2019 12:59 PM > *To:* public-talent-signal@w3.org > <mailto:public-talent-signal@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: Domain sketch > > I agree mostly with Alex (and Stuart's reply). I want to > add some consideration of context into the mix and think > about reuse of terms in different contexts (which is how > schema.org <http://schema.org> works). > > In short, I think the distinction between assertions and > descriptions comes from putting circles around different > parts of the domain sketch (different profiles of the same > set of terms, if you prefer). This is part of what I mean > when I say that it is not a domain model because there are > different perspectives on it. I think what Alex describes > is one (valid) set of perspectives. > > In achievement descriptions, competency is separated from > credential in most of the work that we are following > (CTDL, OpenBadges BadgeClass, ESCO etc.), and it needs to > be. When describing an EducationalOccupationalCredential > you need to be able to say what competencies are being > credentialed. That's why the competencyRequired property > of EducationalOccupationalCredential got into schema.org > <http://schema.org>. > > It's also useful to separate competencies from credentials > when describing learning resources. Then it is necessary > to be able to show an alignment to a learning objective > (i.e. a competence) separately from credentials, in order > to promote reuse in different contexts. > > But in other contexts the schema.org <http://schema.org> > classes can be used as part of an assertion. I don't think > anyone is doing this in schema.org <http://schema.org>, > but if I were to write, as part of a JSON-LD CV (and I'm > making up a couple of properties): > > { > > "@id":"http://people.pjjk.net/phil#id" <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.pjjk.net%2Fphil%23id&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=OjN7d4yOZAz%2FEOPSM5UUJhz5lzZxgf3S0PR%2BN2woZAM%3D&reserved=0>, > > "hasCredential": { > > "@type": "EducationalOccupationalCredential", > > "name": "PhD in Physics", > > "issuedBy":"https://www.bristol.ac.uk/" <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bristol.ac.uk%2F&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=VfvNkGLhvdwwmy%2FKy26UmLyVgXOENIFX%2Bhb2RHlNgFc%3D&reserved=0>, > > }, > > "hasSkill": "Educational metadata modeling" //a literal representing a competence, could be DefinedTerm > > } > > then I am making achievement assertions. (And in order to > make these assertions verifiable you would have to wrap > them up into some collection of assertions and provide the > means of verification.) > > I agree with Alex that > > Once you have a record that matches a person with a > "competency" or "achievement description", and > "evidence" or "assertion" from an "approved" > organization that that person has either passed an > assessment or done something that shows that... you > have an "achievement assertion" > > But not with > > or "credential". > > As Stuart says, to date in schema.org <http://schema.org> > the EducationalOccupationalCredential class has been used > to represent a credential offered (something that "may be > awarded") in the sense of being the thing that the > University of Bristol says I can sign up to if I want to > study for a PhD in physics, not the specific PhD that I > hold. So this is an example of a > EducationalOccupationalCredential that is not an > achievement assertion: > > { > > "@type": "EducationalOccupationalProgram", > > "url":"http://www.bristol.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/2019/sci/phd-physics/" <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bristol.ac.uk%2Fstudy%2Fpostgraduate%2F2019%2Fsci%2Fphd-physics%2F&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=FNiUXEKEslmkB0C4wUuVorWHKnGcPkcIBJWrOd3vowo%3D&reserved=0> > > "educationalCredentialAwarded": { > > "@type": "EducationalOccupationalCredential", > > "name": "PhD in Physics" > > } > > } > > Phil > > On 19/08/2019 16:36, Alex Jackl wrote: > > I agree with Greg that the distinction between the > "achievement description" and the "achievement > assertion" is critical, but in this case I think we > are once again running aground on the semantic reefs. > > If we think of an "achievement description" as a > description of a Knowledge, Skill, Aptitude, or > Experience (either inside of some taxonomy or not) > then it matches cleanly what most people mean by > competency. > > It typically does not include the assessment or test > that would "prove" "provide evidence" that that > competency exists with some person. That matches with > what people usually refer to as an "assessment" or > "evidence". > > Once you have a record that matches a person with a > "competency" or "achievement description", and > "evidence" or "assertion" from an "approved" > organization that that person has either passed an > assessment or done something that shows that... you > have an "achievement assertion" or "credential". > > I think it is that simple. :-) Now - I know each > of these categories have hierarchies and taxonomies > and differing levels of granularity and different ways > t o represent an assessment or organizations > trustworthiness or authority, but this model can be > represented by what Phil is describing. > > What am I missing? I see no issue with the following > semantic equivalences: > > competency <-> achievement description > > assessment <-> evidence (I understand that not all > evidence takes the form of a "test" but you are > assessing somehow!) > > credential <-> achievement assertion > > *** > > Alexander Jackl > > CEO & President, Bardic Systems, Inc. > > alex@bardicsystems.com <mailto:alex@bardicsystems.com> > > M: 508.395.2836 > > F: 617.812.6020 > > http://bardicsystems.com > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbardicsystems.com%2F&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=Pt21CQ4Vt9zb6dc%2FsndTH9APIJ0KdXfGs1M9fss%2FzoE%3D&reserved=0> > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 11:20 AM Nadeau, Gregory > <gnadeau@pcgus.com <mailto:gnadeau@pcgus.com>> wrote: > > Friends, > > I challenge the aspect of the model that separates > a competency from credential. I believe that both > credentials as expressed by CTDL and competencies > as CASE (as well as badges and micro-credentials) > are all overlapping labels and structures for > expressing the general Achievement Description. > Degree, credential, micro-credential, badge, > skill, knowledge, ability, course objective, > academic standard, and learning target are all > labels for this concept without accepted > boundaries between them and distinctions. The > more important distinction from an information > architecture standpoint is separation of the > general, linked-data public Achievement > Description from the Achievement Assertion that > contains PII data about the Learner: > > https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/bSatpUf4dqQ3J0rWNtXXEL35xDDZHKYE6NlcobcNIo-uVYMV5yfxlyWCcjGj55e9RwdGh6sZm8XIQUT6OX-eC-9KRIU30DcRLpKYFxrrmVgG7mtrtEi5LrgOOhSMF5oZ_x8P1EX6v_k > > ** > > > > *Greg Nadeau > *Manager > > 781-370-1017 > > gnadeau@pcgus.com <mailto:gnadeau@pcgus.com> > > publicconsultinggroup.com > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublicconsultinggroup.com&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=S7wwp3EIiOQrR9PHMTok%2BJU%2B5G79QufCB4%2BFBmCdvYw%3D&reserved=0> > > > ** > > This message (including any attachments) contains > confidential information intended for a specific > individual and purpose and is protected by law. > If you are not the intended recipient, you should > delete this message and are hereby notified that > any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this > message, or the taking of any action based on it, > is strictly prohibited. > > *From:* Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk > <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 15, 2019 6:03 AM > *To:* public-talent-signal@w3.org > <mailto:public-talent-signal@w3.org> > *Subject:* Domain sketch > > Hello all, I got a little feedback about the > domain sketch that I've shown a couple of times, > and have altered it accordingly, and tried to > clarify what is and isn't currently in schema.org > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=79ki8sv52msOXfEk%2FpXVMt%2BzPyXnmFNfn2HIF8MRiuA%3D&reserved=0>. > > > Here it is again. I'm thinking about putting it on > the wiki, and hoping that, along with the issue > list > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fcommunity%2Ftalent-signal%2Fwiki%2FIssues%2C_use_cases_and_requirements%23Issues_open_for_consideration&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=K4ZA3A2qLVNx2nK34H15DTqyddggE5Eyh69qUbZWyzA%3D&reserved=0>, > it might serve as a useful way of introducing what > we are about and what we are doing. > > I really want to stress that it is not intended to > be a complete or formal domain model, nor is it > intended to be prescriptive. (I think that for a > domain as big as this, with so many possible > perspectives, it is premature to try to get > consensus on a complete formal model now, if > indeed that will ever be possible.) > > I would welcome feedback on whether this sketch > helps, and how it might be improved, what needs > further explanation, or anything else. > > Regards, Phil > > -- > > Phil Barker > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.pjjk.net%2Fphil&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=wp%2BKWrKmRT0kMuHaN5opZwjB9NeM1VVMjuoBFlSDlk8%3D&reserved=0>. > http://people.pjjk.net/phil > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.pjjk.net%2Fphil&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=wp%2BKWrKmRT0kMuHaN5opZwjB9NeM1VVMjuoBFlSDlk8%3D&reserved=0> > CETIS LLP > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cetis.org.uk&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=j5895k0tabo83ffun7xsGeEQ26iYShNmWm6lG3BGxz4%3D&reserved=0>: > a cooperative consultancy for innovation in > education technology. > PJJK Limited > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pjjk.co.uk&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=wVq0gqKNSar%2BQ12HwkaRPn7oeuynxosJ%2FcHIzXjDzto%3D&reserved=0>: > technology to enhance learning; information > systems for education. > > CETIS is a co-operative limited liability > partnership, registered in England number OC399090 > PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a > private limited company, number SC569282. > > -- > > Phil Barker > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.pjjk.net%2Fphil&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=wp%2BKWrKmRT0kMuHaN5opZwjB9NeM1VVMjuoBFlSDlk8%3D&reserved=0>. > http://people.pjjk.net/phil > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.pjjk.net%2Fphil&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=wp%2BKWrKmRT0kMuHaN5opZwjB9NeM1VVMjuoBFlSDlk8%3D&reserved=0> > CETIS LLP > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cetis.org.uk&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=j5895k0tabo83ffun7xsGeEQ26iYShNmWm6lG3BGxz4%3D&reserved=0>: > a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education > technology. > PJJK Limited > <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pjjk.co.uk&data=01%7C01%7CGNADEAU%40PCGUS.COM%7C8b30741ac8e04b5fa3fc08d724c6ac40%7Cd9b110c34c254379b97ae248938cc17b%7C0&sdata=wVq0gqKNSar%2BQ12HwkaRPn7oeuynxosJ%2FcHIzXjDzto%3D&reserved=0>: > technology to enhance learning; information systems for > education. > > CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, > registered in England number OC399090 > PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private > limited company, number SC569282. > > -- > > Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. > http://people.pjjk.net/phil <http://people.pjjk.net/phil> > CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk>: a cooperative > consultancy for innovation in education technology. > PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance > learning; information systems for education. > > CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, > registered in England number OC399090 > PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited > company, number SC569282. > > -- > > Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. > http://people.pjjk.net/phil <http://people.pjjk.net/phil> > CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk>: a cooperative consultancy > for innovation in education technology. > PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance > learning; information systems for education. > > CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered > in England number OC399090 > PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited > company, number SC569282. > -- Merrilea J. Mayo, Ph.D. Mayo Enterprises, LLC 12101 Sheets Farm Rd. North Potomac, MD 20878 merrileamayo@gmail.com https://merrileamayo.com/ < > 240-304-0439 (cell) 301-977-2599 (landline)
Received on Tuesday, 20 August 2019 15:25:17 UTC