- From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:44:03 +0200
- To: W3C RDFa task force <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
- CC: W3C SW Deployment WG <public-swd-wg@w3.org>, rubys@intertwingly.net
- Message-ID: <4AA93AE3.3010802@w3.org>
Here are in full beauty:
http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html
text version below. Thanks to Manu for scribing
Ivan
-----------------------------------------------
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
RDF in XHTML Task Force
10 Sep 2009
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0091.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc
Previous: [4]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html
[4] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html
Attendees
Present
Manu Sporny, Ivan Herman, Ben Adida, Shane McCarron, Sam
Ruby, Steven Pemberton
Regrets
Mark Birbeck, Michael Hausenblas
Chair
Ben Adida
Scribe
Manu Sporny
Contents
* [5]Topics
1. [6]Action Items
2. [7]Process for moving HTML+RDFa forward
3. [8]HTML5+RDFa issues
* [9]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
Action Items
<scribe> ACTION: Ben to transfer wiki issues to tracker [recorded in
[10]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
[CONTINUES]
[10] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
<scribe> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral
change [recorded in
[11]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [DONE]
[11] http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
<scribe> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded
in [12]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
[CONTINUES]
[12] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
Ben Adida: Revoke action to transfer wiki issues to tracker
... Any other topics to add to the agenda?
Manu: Sam might want to talk about process moving forward in
HTML+RDFa
Process for moving HTML+RDFa forward
Ben Adida: Let's talk about the HTML WG process and how we can make
things easier for moving HTML+RDFa forward.
Sam Ruby: Manu has put out two drafts now.
... The biggest issues seems to be xmlns:, so addressing that head
on would be good.
... Splitting out Microdata might be good to work on too.
Ben Adida: My worry is if it gets rejected based on Ian's draft vs.
Manu's draft.
... What if there is no opportunity to discuss things on a
point-by-point basis?
Sam Ruby: I don't think there will be an outright rejection.
... I think that the only reason we won't publish it as a WD is
because it is not ready yet.
... Both Paul and Maciej are fine with the draft and don't see an
issue moving forward.
Manu: Are we going to have a poll before publishing?
Sam Ruby: I'd much rather not have a poll/vote and publish if there
are no objections (lazy consensus).
Ben Adida: I believe that xmlns: is a broader issue than RDFa.
Sam Ruby: Yes, it is.
Ben Adida: Should we wait off on some of these distributed
extensibility issues or push the issue now with RDFa?
Sam Ruby: Wait a bit, but contribute what you can when the
conversations come up.
ivan: One procedural question - is the first public working draft
dependent on the xmlns: issue?
... I'm concerned that there would be an objection to publishing the
document based on xmlns:
Sam Ruby: There's no requirement that publishing requires that there
is broad consensus.
... at least for WDs.
Ben Adida: Any other general advice?
Sam Ruby: Nope, glad how it's moving forward.
HTML5+RDFa issues
<msporny>
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009S
ep/0087.html
[13]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0087.html
Manu: sent out email earlier this week (url above),
... major issue remaining is xmlns, lots of discussion
<ivan> [14]ivan's addendum
[14] http://www.w3.org/mid/4AA75ADD.1060509@w3.org
Manu: couple of other small items which also affect RDFa in XHTML
1.1
Ivan: put xmlns aside for now based on Sam's input?
Manu: still need to discuss language in the doc
... hard deadline for 9/18 FPWD
... we need to be on the same page for what goes into the doc
... XMLLiteral issue with preservation with bare xmlns
Shane: your implementation doesn't preserve the default namespace?
Manu: No, it doesn't. I'm talking about the default namespace.
Ben: I think the spec says that default namespace should be
preserved.
Manu: in that case, the test cases are wrong.
<msporny> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace
preservation [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
Ben: if we have to change the test cases, is that an errata?
Shane: no, it's just a wrong test case.
Ben: We have consensus that the spec says to preserve xml literals,
and the only way to do so is to preserve the default namespace.
Ivan: should the text be more explicit?
<msporny> The preservation of xmlns as well as xmlns:-prefixed
attributes:
<msporny>
[16]http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/rdfa.html#invalid-xmllitera
l-values
[16]
http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/rdfa.html#invalid-xmlliteral-values
<ShaneM> oh - for the record my implementation DOES preserve the
default namespace for elements within XML Literals
<scribe> ACTION: Shane to add clarification in errata regarding
preservation of default namespace [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
<msporny> The preference of the profile link type to the profile
attribute:
<msporny>
[18]http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/rdfa.html#the-profile-attri
bute-and-link-type
[18]
http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/rdfa.html#the-profile-attribute-and-link-type
<msporny> The XMLLiteral discussion and what sort of errata and
changes to
<msporny> HTML+RDFa should be made
Ivan: let's finish the xml literal discussion.
Ivan: the examples and test cases do not have canonical XML for XML
literals.
... only RDF/XML has a canonical XML transformation specified.
<ShaneM> Our spec defines the behavior in
[19]http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_xml_literals
[19] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_xml_literals
Ivan: we can say this is not our problem, up to SPARQL, etc.
... or we can canonicalize our examples.
Ben: we said we expected SPARQL to canonicalize
Ivan: absolutely, but it's not spec'ed by SPARQL.
... so we can punt or write something unnecessary but correct.
Ben: what's the cost of punting?
Ivan: maybe an errata clarification?
Shane: we don't normatively talk about canonicalization.
<ShaneM> I have written the following errata text:
<ShaneM> <li>Section 5.5 step 9 - The text of step 9 reads in part
"The
<ShaneM> value of the [XML literal] is a string created by
serializing to
<ShaneM> text, all nodes that are descendants of the [current
element],
<ShaneM> i.e., not including the element itself, and giving it a
datatype
<ShaneM> of rdf:XMLLiteral.". For the avoidance of doubt, this means
in
<ShaneM> part that the current default namespace of each element
MUST also
<ShaneM> be included in the emitted XML literal.
<ShaneM> </li>
<ivan> [20]start of the thread
[20] http://www.w3.org/mid/4AA517CE.7080407@cam.ac.uk
Ben:what about this: "2.00"^^xs:float
Ben:vs. this: "2.0"^^xs:float
<ShaneM> and "2"^^xs:float
<scribe> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force"
email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
<msporny> The xmlns: discussion and clarifications to the RDFa spec:
<msporny>
[22]http://rdfa.info/wiki/html5-rdfa-wd-issues#4.3_The_xmlns:_attrib
ute
[22]
http://rdfa.info/wiki/html5-rdfa-wd-issues#4.3_The_xmlns:_attribute
<msporny>
[23]http://rdfa.info/wiki/html5-rdfa-wd-issues#5.2_Preservation_and_
Validation_of_xmlns:
[23]
http://rdfa.info/wiki/html5-rdfa-wd-issues#5.2_Preservation_and_Validation_of_xmlns:
Manu: let's deal with the xmlns issue
... first issue, xmlns is "not an attribute"
... second issue, "stop talking about XML in HTML5"
... define processing rules in a form that doesn't talk about
namespaces or XML namespaces.
... Henri wants us to define how an infoset, non-DOM processor would
parse this?
Ben: sounds out of scope
Manu: maybe an implementors' guide?
Ivan: if I have DOM1 impl, then no namespace, but if DOM2 impl, then
other calls need to be made to get at the namespace info.
Implementation approach is very different.
... I think that's Henri's problem.
... so an implementation guide might be useful and good.
Manu: that's exactly right.
... there's no *one* way to implement this in a web browser.
... but it is a very straight-forward algorithm.
Shane: it's not just a browser issue.
... but that is a bit of a red herring.
... implementors' guide on wiki?
Ben: +1
Manu: wouldn't be too difficult to write the algorithm for web
browsers.
Ivan: perfectly okay to put open issues in FPWD.
Shane: re: what language should be in the doc, for normative
purposes?
Ben: we can minimize the # of references to xmlns.
Shane: we already have processing rules specified for RDFa syntax.
... it's okay to include things by reference.
Ivan: touching the processing rules is the most dangerous thing we
can do.
... there is a small section that talks about xml namespaces. But
most of the spec does not reference xmlns.
<ShaneM> unfortunate text: Mappings are provided by @xmlns.
<ShaneM> Should be "Mappings are provided by [XMLNS]"
Ben Adida: Let's try to come to some loose consensus on these
issues.
... xmlns: is bigger than us at this point, maybe we should wait
until Tuesday.
... to see what the status of the xmlns: discussion is at that
point.
... implementers guide should be on the wiki
<ivan> actually, shane, the whole of section 2 in the processing
rule is a little bit out of place there, we could just refer to the
CURIE and URI processing...
Ben Adida: let's not do implementation language in the spec.
<ShaneM> In a recent email I said:
<ShaneM> Further, since the RDFa Syntax Recommendation is only
concerned about the "syntax" of those prefix declarations, and has
no semantic requirements beyond that for the use of XML Namespaces,
it should be clear that parts of the Namespaces in XML
Recommendation that deal with how XML Namespaces effect the
declaration of elements and attributes is irrelevant for an RDFa
Syntax - conforming processor.
<ShaneM> (Note - I would be very comfortable adding such language in
the RDFa Syntax Errata document immediately. I will bring it up at
the next Task Force call.)
Manu: I'm concerned about any language in the XHTML+RDFa spec, that
contains references to XML.
ivan: In the processing rules, section 2, which refers to XMLNS is a
bit out of place.
... Maybe we could just refer to CURIE and URI processing.
Ben Adida: I think Mark and Shane spec'ed CURIE to be abstract in
its mapping implementation.
ShaneM: That step identifies URI prefix mappings.
Ben Adida: So, we should write up implementation notes on the wiki?
Manu: yes.
... sounds good.
<Ben Adida> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns
algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
<ShaneM> [25]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript
[25] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript
ShaneM: That's the CURIE resolution processing implementation in
javascript.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns
algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force"
email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace
preservation [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded
in [29]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
[29] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change
[recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to add clarification in errata regarding
preservation of default namespace [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
[DROPPED] ACTION: Ben to transfer wiki issues to tracker [recorded
in [32]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
[30] http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
[32] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [33]scribe.perl version 1.135
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$Date: 2009/09/10 17:34:49 $
_________________________________________________________
[33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[34] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
--
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
Received on Thursday, 10 September 2009 17:41:26 UTC