- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 12:28:55 -0400
- To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org, public-swd-wg@w3.org
The record of today's RDFa telecon [1] is available.
[1] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/29-rdfa-minutes.html
A text snapshot follows.
----
RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
29 May 2008
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0211.html
See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-05-15
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/29-rdfa-irc
[4] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-rdfa-minutes.html
Attendees
Present
Shane McCarron, Manu Sporny, Ralph, Steven, Mark Birbeck
Regrets
Michael Hausenblas, Ben Adida
Chair
Manu
Scribe
Ralph
Contents
* Topics
1. Response to TAG
2. Test Cases
o test 105; inner @rel neither CURIE nor LinkType
o test 106; chaining with empty value in inner @rel
3. handling of literals in test harness
4. ISSUE-120
5. ISSUE-103
6. CR Transition Scheduling
* Summary of Action Items
_____________________________________________________
ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform
transferred to W3C [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[CONTINUES]
[15] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
ACTION: Manu to reach out to Slashdot and attempt to get RDFa
integrated into Slashdot. [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[CONTINUES]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10
ACTION: [DONE] Mark to move _:a bnode notation to normative section
[recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
in [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[CONTINUES]
[18] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: Michael to determine which useless-triples test cases to
remove and which to add. [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[CONTINUES]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
Response to TAG
Steven: I don't really understand [20]DanC's point
[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0202.html
Mark: the idea of "Follow your nose" seems to mean "let's leave HTML
and XHTML untouched but add something else"
... but we are changing XHTML1
... reading the TAG minutes I get the impression that Tim is open to
this
... others seem to worry about folks who may accidentally use our
new attributes without intending to do so
... we should take a stand that these new attributes should be used
only for the purpose of generating triples
Steven: and furthermore, doing this does not change the meaning of
any existing HTML page
... it just formalizes what the page really means
Manu: is there a concern about the HTML5 series?
... at one point they said that while this may be good for XHTML,
@profile does not exist for HTML5
Shane: that's not our problem
Ralph: I agree with Shane
<Steven> +1
Shane: I had an off-line discussion with NoahM and perhaps someone
else
... Tim definitely concurred with adding this to core XHTML1
... and proposed annotating the namespace document to say this
... some were concerned that this means every XHTML document
currently on the Web then should generate triples
... there was a suggestion that there be an announcement mechanism
that tells parsers they _should_ generate triples
Ralph: why isn't this a problem for the consumer of the document
rather than the author of the document?
... I agree with Steven's comment that XHTML always has _meant_ this
... so the author shouldn't be telling the client whether it should
or shouldn't generate triples
... the client decides that
Manu: running fuzbot for a while, it seems every page does generate
triples
Shane: so fine, and we should update the media type spec to say that
we now generate triples
... this will make it clear that this is a big step
<markbirbeck> My argument for not requiring @profile or DTDs:
<markbirbeck> [21]http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-license
[21] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-license
Steven: I don't agree with the argument that the media type must say
that the document is used to generate triples
<markbirbeck> +1 Steven
Steven: the media type just identifies the type of document; it
doesn't say how you should process it
Shane: in the RDF cases, the media type does say [something about]
how to process it
Mark: that may be the TAG's point
... the question "should we waste time processing this document if
it doesn't contain RDFa" is one of two
... the second is "if we process a document as if it contains RDFa,
are we acquiring statements that people did not intend to make"?
... the second is what the TAG is currently debating
... a third question might concern @rel='license'
... they're suggesting that we should *not* process @rel='license'
... this means that >1M documents won't have this clear semantics
... we can make all these documents available to RDFa easily
... it's crazy to say none of these documents assert a license
currently
Shane: as a group, we've agreed on this here
... we only need to address the 'follow your nose' question; it's
about how discovery works on the Web
... related to 302 discussion
... the TAG appears to have a whole big environment in mind, of
which RDFa is a small part, and they want to know how this fits
... how does a document containing RDFa say that it contains RDFa?
... Tim says "they all do"
Mark: we think the interpretation of a document [is specified] even
if the author didn't previously sign a contract
... we're saying "here is an RDF interpretation of billions of
documents that have [already] been published on the Web"
... and we hope people will publish even more [data] than they have
already done
Ralph: +1
Shane: it's not about imposing processing; it's about _permitting_
processing
... the TAG's argument is that they don't see an explicit
instruction and therefore can't map this into their world view
Ralph: does the TAG not believe that it is sufficient to have
updated the XHTML1 namespace document?
Shane: there are two ways to update the namespace document; prose
and with the GRDDL profile
... the prose is more interesting to me
... you go from the media type to the namespace document, not to the
modularization document
... we should propose to the TAG that we will follow Tim's
recommendation and update the namespace document, both the prose and
the machine-readable and all documents of type XHTML1 have RDF
triples
Ralph: +1
Steven: +1
<Steven> "Published specification:
<Steven> The text/html media type is now defined by W3C
Recommendations;
<Steven> the latest published version is ..."
<Steven> (That's from the rfc for text/html)
ACTION: Shane draft a TAG response along the lines of "we will
update the namespace document, both the prose and the
machine-readable and all documents of type XHTML1 have RDF triples"
[recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
Test Cases
<msporny> [23]http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
[23] http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
-- test 105; inner @rel neither CURIE nor LinkType
Manu: oops, seems I broke the test case harness
<msporny> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<msporny> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"
"[24]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd">
[24] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd
<msporny> <html xmlns="[25]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
[25] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
<msporny> xmlns:dc="[26]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
[26] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/
<msporny> <head>
<msporny> <title>Test 0105</title>
<msporny> </head>
<msporny> <body>
<msporny> <div about="" rel="dc:creator">
<msporny> <a rel="myfoobarrel" href="ben.html">Ben</a> created this
page.
<msporny> </div>
<msporny> </body>
<msporny> </html>
<msporny> ASK WHERE {
<msporny>
<[27]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0
105.xhtml> <[28]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/creator> _:a .
[27] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0105.xhtml%3E
[28] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/creator%3E
<msporny> }
Manu: _:a should be changed to ?a
... we should verify that the object is a bnode
... so needs a FILTER
<msporny> ASK WHERE {
<msporny>
<[29]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0
105.xhtm
[29] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0105.xhtm
<msporny> l> <[30]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/creator> ?a .
[30] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/creator%3E
<msporny> FILTER IsBlank(?a)
<msporny> }
Mark: to be a full test, we should check that there's not a triple
with myfoobarrel as a predicate
Manu: we can't do that in a single query
Mark: could use NOT
Manu: I'll investigate
... there are other tests that don't verify the absence of a triple
Mark: do we need @about="" ?
Steven: doesn't do any harm
RESOLUTION: test 105 accepted, with change to check for absence of
myfoobarrel triple
<ShaneM> +1
-- test 106; chaining with empty value in inner @rel
<msporny> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<msporny> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"
"[31]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd">
[31] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd
<msporny> <html xmlns="[32]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
[32] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
<msporny> xmlns:dc="[33]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
[33] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/
<msporny> <head>
<msporny> <title>Test 0106</title>
<msporny> </head>
<msporny> <body>
<msporny> <div about="" rel="dc:creator">
<msporny> <a rel="" href="manu.html">Manu</a> created this page.
<msporny> </div>
<msporny> </body>
<msporny> </html>
<msporny> ASK WHERE {
<msporny>
<[34]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0
106.xhtml> <[35]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/creator> ?a .
[34] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0106.xhtml%3E
[35] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/creator%3E
<msporny> FILTER IsBlank(?a)
<msporny> }
Manu: add similar absence test to 106
Ralph: no predicate to check for absence in this case
Mark: a parser might blindly generate a predicate URI of
[36]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
[36] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
<Steven> Is there an empty CURIE?
Ralph: even though that wouldn't be a [semantically] valid predicate
name
Mark: yep
<markbirbeck> I was thinking of the xhv namespace, Ralph.
[yep, I copied the wrong text!]
Manu: we could test that there is no triple containing "Manu" as an
object
Mark: yes, that's more sensible for both 106 and 105
RESOLUTION: test 106 accepted, with change to check for absence of
triples containing manu.html as either subject or object
handling of literals in test harness
Manu: we currently have 4 tests that fail; 100-103 because the
literals are compared character by character
<msporny> <div />
Manu: even though the test is correct, the harness considers ''' and
'"' to be different
<msporny> <div></div>
Manu: also, our test doesn't cover the case that <div /> and
<div></div> are equivalent
... I propose that we add two versions of each test; one in short
form and one in long form
Ralph: sounds reasonable to me to duplicate the tests for the
convenience of implementors
<msporny> ASK WHERE {
<msporny> <[37]http://www.example.org>
<[38]http://example.org/rdf/example> 'Some text here in <strong
xmlns="[39]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xmlns:svg="[40]http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">bold</strong> and an svg
rectangle: <svg:svg xmlns="[41]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xmlns:svg="[42]http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><svg:rect
svg:height="100"
svg:width="200"/></svg:svg>'^^<[43]http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-
syntASK WHERE {
[37] http://www.example.org%3E/
[38] http://example.org/rdf/example%3E
[39] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
[40] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg
[41] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
[42] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg
[43] http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntASK
<msporny> <[44]http://www.example.org>
<[45]http://example.org/rdf/example> 'Some text here in <strong
xmlns="[46]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xmlns:svg="[47]http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">bold</strong> and an svg
rectangle: <svg:svg xmlns="[48]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xmlns:svg="[49]http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><svg:rect
svg:height="100"
svg:width="200"/></svg:svg>'^^<[50]http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-
syntax-ns#XMLLiteral> .
[44] http://www.example.org%3E/
[45] http://example.org/rdf/example%3E
[46] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
[47] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg
[48] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
[49] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg
[50] http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#XMLLiteral%3E
<msporny> }
<msporny> ax-ns#XMLLiteral> .
<msporny> }
Manu: ^ SPARQL for test 100
... this is nearly impossible [for a human] to read
<msporny> ASK WHERE {
<msporny> <[51]http://www.example.org>
<[52]http://example.org/rdf/example> 'Some text here in <strong
xmlns="[53]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xmlns:svg="[54]http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">bold</strong> and an svg
rectangle: <svg:svg xmlns="[55]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xmlns:svg="[56]http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><svg:rect
svg:height="100"
svg:width="200"/></svg:svg>'^^<[57]http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-
syntax-ns#XMLLiteral> .
[51] http://www.example.org%3E/
[52] http://example.org/rdf/example%3E
[53] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
[54] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg
[55] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
[56] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg
[57] http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#XMLLiteral%3E
<msporny> }
Manu: the idea would be to include UNION statements where '"' is
exchanged for '''
<msporny> </svg:rect>
Manu: and has both self-closed and explicit close tags
... for the convenience of both sax-based and DOM-based parsers
... any objections?
[no objections]
Manu: I propose to update test 100-103 to add all four cases
Shane: I don't really object but I point out it's an "interesting"
combinatorial problem to add all the cases to the SPARQL
Manu: modified proposal; only add those requested by implementors
Shane: also add a comment to the tests so when new implementors come
along they know why they might be failing
<msporny> PROPOSE: Add implementors valid XML Literals to TC 100-103
and add comments to tell other implementors that the tests may fail
due to XML Literal issues.
<msporny> PROPOSE: Add valid cases of XML Literals as requested by
implementers to TC 100-103 and add comments to tell other
implementors that the tests may fail due to XML Literal issues.
<Steven> ok
RESOLUTION: Add valid cases of XML Literals as requested by
implementers to TC 100-103 and add comments to tell other
implementors that the tests may fail due to XML Literal issues.
[58]ISSUE-120; nested @rel where inner @rel is neither CURIE nor link
type
[58] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/120
Manu: I believe we've resolved this
Shane: the resolution was a minor change in the document ~1 month
ago
Mark: this was a case of reading the text two possible ways, where
one way was really awkward
... the problem I thought people were raising was that although the
second [myfoobarrel] line does not generate a triple, it may also
cause the first [dc:creator] line to not generate a triple
... we should be more explicit that the nested element does complete
the first triple even though it doesn't contain a valid @rel
... I argued this was clear in the spec by interpretation of step 5
... the wording is changed to refer to the presence of @rel
attribute rather than to a @rel value
<msporny> PROPOSE: Resolve ISSUE-120 having made a minor change to
the Syntax Document specifying that the presence of a @rel generates
an incomplete triple
<msporny> PROPOSE: Resolve ISSUE-120 having made a minor change to
the Syntax Document specifying that the presence of a @rel is
sufficient to complete and incomplete triple.
<ShaneM>
[59]http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/viewcvs/viewcvs.cgi/rdfa-syntax/Over
view.mhtml.diff?r1=1.228&r2=1.229
[59] http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/viewcvs/viewcvs.cgi/rdfa-syntax/Overview.mhtml.diff?r1=1.228&r2=1.229
RESOLUTION: Resolve ISSUE-120 having made a minor change to the
Syntax Document specifying that the presence of a @rel is sufficient
to complete an incomplete triple.
<msporny> [60]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/103
[60] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/103
[61]ISSUE-103; a URI-centric approach to CURIEs
[61] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/103
Manu: our [62]email discussion boils down to "let's not change
anything"
[62] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/thread.html#msg182
-> [63]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/103 ISSUE-103 a
URI-centric approach to CURIEs
[63] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/103
Shane: the argument is that CURIEs are _not_ URIs
... the implication of being a URI is that they could be used over
the wire, but they can't be used over the wire
Mark: and we've suggested that languages that currently use QNAMEs
could migrate over time to using CURIEs
Shane: in the TAG's recent CURIE Last Call comments they say that
the CURIE syntax is too rich for use in SPARQL
Steven: and we're trying to fix that limitation in other languages
<msporny> PROPOSE: Resolve ISSUE-103, CURIEs are not URI schemes,
they are a macro expansion mechanism. No need to change the Syntax
document.
<Steven> There are queries you would like to make that SPARQL cannot
do, and CURIEs fix that
Mark: I'd like my email comment to be included; this is QName-like
<msporny> PROPOSE: Resolve ISSUE-103, CURIEs are not URI schemes,
they are a macro expansion mechanism. No need to change the Syntax
document. CURIEs are also QName-like, allowing legacy languages to
migrate forward cleanly.
Ralph: +1
<markbirbeck> +1
RESOLUTION: ISSUE-103 closed, CURIEs are not URI schemes, they are a
macro expansion mechanism. No need to change the Syntax document.
CURIEs are also QName-like, allowing legacy languages to migrate
forward cleanly.
CR Transition Scheduling
Ralph: in SWD WG meeting, Ben was asked to confirm that the XHTML2
WG will be able to resolve a CR transition request by Tuesday 10
June
Shane: yes, XHTML2 WG will be able to resolve this by 11 June
Steven: but there's an XForms WG meeting on the 11th
Shane: XHTML2 WG will be able to resolve CR transition request by 17
June
... and we should discuss the CR exit criteria
Steven: I propose "2 implementations that pass all tests"
Shane: we've had a request that there also be an XSLT implementation
... however, I do not believe that such an implementation is
possible
Steven: the minimum requirement is that there are 2 implementations
of all features, and they don't all even have to be in one
implementation
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Shane draft a TAG response along the lines of "we will
update the namespace document, both the prose and the
machine-readable and all documents of type XHTML1 have RDF triples"
[recorded in
[64]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL
transform transferred to W3C [recorded in
[65]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to reach out to Slashdot and attempt to get
RDFa integrated into Slashdot. [recorded in
[66]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in
[67]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to determine which useless-triples test
cases to remove and which to add. [recorded in
[68]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[65] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
[66] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10
[67] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[68] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[DONE] ACTION: Mark to move _:a bnode notation to normative section
[recorded in
[69]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
[69] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
[End of minutes]
_____________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 29 May 2008 17:27:27 UTC