- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:38:08 -0400
- To: public-swd-wg@w3.org
Elisa sent the edited minutes to me 2 days ago -- I apologize for
not posting them until just now. To make partial amends, I'll
send the notice to this list for her.
The minutes of last week's SemWeb Deployment Working Group
telecon [1] are available for review. Text snapshot of rev 1.3 follows.
[1] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/03-swd-minutes.html
----
SWD WG
03 Jun 2008
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jun/0001.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/03-swd-irc
Attendees
Present
Tom Baker, Ralph Swick, Elisa Kendall, Ed Summers, Alistair
Miles, Jon Phillips, Ben Adida (IRC only)
Regrets
Margherita Sini, Sean Bechhofer, Diego Berrueta Muņoz,
Antoine Isaac, Guus Schreiber, Michael Hausenblas, Vit
Novacek, Simone Onofri
Chair
Tom
Scribe
Elisa
Contents
* Topics
1. Admin
2. SKOS Reference Planning
* Summary of Action Items
_____________________________________________________
Admin
<TomB> Previous: [8]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html
[8] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html
<TomB> Scribe: Elisa
Tom: Considering pushing this week's agenda to next week due to low
turnout
SKOS Reference Planning
<aliman>
[9]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Reference/Planning
[9] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Reference/Planning
Alistair: All of the content is there; We need roughly 1/2 day to
make a few minor changes, add schema files, and that's it. There are
a couple of issues in the schema files that Sean sent,
inconsistencies, that may have been due to transforms or tools.
... When I was using tripler before, I got some weird behavior that
I wasn't able to pin down. The problems were minor, so I just need
another 1/2 day to get the files together and send them to Ralph.
Tom: Let's do that on the list then. We did decide last week that
the changes had been incorporated ... whether we need to wait until
next week or can do that earlier, let's wait until the files are
posted and then take a decision online.
<benadida> Hi all, unfortunately I can only join via IRC today.
Ralph: Do we have a resolution to publish?
Tom: Yes, if you look at the 5-27 minutes, at the end of the SKOS
section, the discussion was to publish the draft without formal
review.
Ralph: Yes
Tom: I would propose that that also means that we could take the
decision online and wouldn't need to wait for the next telecon.
Ralph: I concur with that.
Tom: We could close issue 83, but I think the call is too small, so
I don't see any other items on which we could make significant
progress this week. I suggest that we resolve to use this agenda as
the starting point for next weeks call, unless anyone has issues on
which we think we could make progress with such a small call.
Ralph: What I'm wondering - Ed, do you know where Jon is making
updates where stuff is fixed?
Ed: He seems to be pushing them through CVS.
<JonP> I am
Ralph: I'm not seeing all of the changes.
<Ralph> Jon, is there an updated .html document?
Ralph: ... because some of the changes you had suggested
consistently used the same domain name ...
Ed: Alot of the things I was pointing out had to do with the files
... I did have a question about ... he was using mydomain in one of
the examples.
<Ralph> Jon, e.g. 'yourdomain' vs 'example.com'
Ralph: That was one of the questions I wanted to raise.
<JonP> There haven't been any updates to the html since we posted
the last draft.
<Ralph> (W3C pubrules prefers either w3.org or example.com)
<JonP> ...trying to get on the call
Tom: I wanted to talk about some of the things that might continue
after the working group, as a question to Ralph, what are the
opportunities, resources available to ... as far as use of wikis is
concerned, support for mailing lists, what are the options?
Ralph: If the working group wants to ask for or sponsor a SKOS
interest list? I don't have a feeling either way whether that's
valuable or not. We can certainly host those lists and the wiki as
well.
If we can, snapshot the state of the working group, not necessarily
freeze it, but make the point the working group reached clear for a
couple of years from now... I would prefer generally that we
establish a separate set of SKOS wiki pages
Alistair: That would be nice.
Tom: Maybe the current wiki pages could be frozen.
Ralph: The esw wiki will at some point be migrated over to ...
Ralph, so the current difference in wiki platforms will eventually
go away ... in a single digit number of months.
Tom: back to recipes ...
Ralph: I did write an email shortly before the telecon -- it's
useful for us to be careful about consistency. That's why I asked if
the updates you're making are visible somewhere ... if the served
example files are being updated somewhere.
Jon: It's enough of a pain to update everything that I'm staying
with the last date where I can. I think I only changed one small
thing in that document and that was a date. I haven't changed the
example.org changes until you can do a review of the document.
Ralph: I guess I'd like, if you would create a 2008-06-xx.html
document, the dates can be inconsistent.
Jon: I haven't actually changed anything in the document since the
draft that I put up, almost all of the changes I can think of are
in.
Ralph: So the only thing you can think of is the yourhost ...
Jon: What's the process at this point? Does this need to go thru any
additional review?
Ralph: If Ed and I say that this is ok, then the working group
should be ok with it.
Jon: if I make the change and put up the document, it's ok to
reference the 2008-04 examples, without having to change all of the
dates?
Ralph: Yes.
<Ralph> (for an updated editor's draft)
Jon: I just have to make the one change to the document and repost
it.
<Zakim> aliman, you wanted to ask about URI dereference behaviour
for SKOS concepts, schemes etc.
Alistair: I was just looking ahead at the SKOS issues, there is one
on the URI dereference behavior, and I was wondering if anyone had
any ideas about how to resolve this relatively painlessly. Perhaps
we can resolve this to a recipes example.
Ralph: I definitely thought we would go in the direction of working
to a recipe.
<Ralph> [10]issue-86; SkosURIDereferenceBehaviour
[10] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/86
Alistair: 6 is the extended configuration for dereferencing to a
concept.
Ralph: I don't necessarily think we should resolve to recipe 6 in
particular ...
Ed: You can imagine someone opting for a simpler one.
<Ralph> LCSH
Alistair: What do you do for LCSH?
... They have a way of working around doing 303s but still being
able to dereference each URI.
<aliman> [11]http://lcsh.info/123456#concept
[11] http://lcsh.info/123456#concept
Ralph: How much trouble would I be causing to ask for a write-up for
this ...
Ed: It was originally done using one of the recipes, but this
simplified the server side code. I would be happy to write it up,
but it would probably need some time to put it together.
<aliman> ... where [12]http://lcsh.info/123456 is directly
negotiable
[12] http://lcsh.info/123456
Alistair: From what I understand, I think its ok, but you do have to
be a little bit careful, as there is a primary URI, but the risk is
that if you serve html content, and if that had an anchor in it for
your concept ... you could end up with a conflict ...
Ed: I've been trying to make sure that the html references do have
an anchor with concept, so maybe this is an issue.
<edsu> [13]http://lcsh.info/sh85118553#concept
[13] http://lcsh.info/sh85118553#concept
Ralph: When I do an http get on an URI which is a subject heading,
it's something that has (see example) ... if I do an http get on
that, the server may not respond with a 200, as the subject heading
is not a document.
Alistair: I'm not sure that's true, because you can't do an http get
on that directly, you need to do that on the primary URI.
Ralph: This is exactly the point you made about the difference
between the html and RDF version, and in this particular design, the
server can't say 303 for a concept, because it doesn't know you
asked for the concept. It creates additional confusion if the html
document has anchors called concept and the RDF has ids called
concept. This means that the TAG will think that the LCSH approach
is broken.
Ed: I definitely understand the issue of having the hash URI that
has two different representations, I guess I was encouraging Jon to
promulgate this error ... :).
Alistair: If there was not an anchor in the html, I thought this
could be considered a new recipe, as long as there wasn't a direct
contradiction to web architecture.
Ralph: That's the difference between recipes 1 and 3 ... the crucial
difference is that recipe 1 doesn't have any html and recipe 3
introduces html and a 303.
Ed: That's originally what I did.
Ralph: I'm afraid that doesn't work ... appreciating Alistair's
attempt to massage it.
<TomB> [14]http://www.openarchives.org/ore/0.9/primer.html#HTTP
[14] http://www.openarchives.org/ore/0.9/primer.html#HTTP
Alistair: The argument was really fine, all of the recipes are more
cautious with respect to 303s.
<TomB>
[15]http://www.openarchives.org/ore/0.9/primer.html#Aggregation
[15] http://www.openarchives.org/ore/0.9/primer.html#Aggregation
Ralph: It creates dragons for revisions to the vocabulary - you have
to be sure not to introduce any anchors.
<Ralph> [16]Cool URIs for the Semantic Web
[16] http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/NOTE-cooluris-20080331/
Ed: In the Cool URIs document, there was feedback from the TAG ...
there was something in that document that shifted in its tone at
some point.
Alistair: The feedback I had from TimBL had to do with generic
resources, from what I understand, Tim was saying do a 303, and then
content negotiate from that point. If you have a generic resource
then you can bookmark it. I thought back through what we have done
... you can't go back through and retrofit that to a document, you
would have to publish a new document.
<edsu> [17]http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~sauermann/2006/11/cooluris/
[17] http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~sauermann/2006/11/cooluris/
Ed: This looks like it was the old document, but if you look at
figure 4, it doesn't look like what we're doing now. Look at figure
4, so it's in section 4.1, the hash URI section.
<Ralph> Ralph: the dfki version is old
Alistair: That's interesting. Then you would be able to fix it by
making sure that the content location header is correct.
<aliman> The Content-Location header should be set to indicate if
the hash URI refers to a part of the HTML document or RDF document.
Ed: I'm open to changing it if we have a recommendation. I'm willing
to change it appropriately, and that's the reason I put this
experimental version out. Maintenance over time is definitely a big
issue.
Alistair: There's quite a bit of difference between the Cool URIs
document and the recipes we're putting out.
Ed: I think that was introduced in the stuff that Diego noticed.
Alistair: We've only got a recipe for the first part of 4.1 and 4.3.
Ed: But you started this a long time before this came out.
Ralph: We might need to say something about this other document with
additional cases.
Alistair: But the recipes document would get considerably more
complicated
Ralph: We should at least acknowledge the one more useful pattern.
Ed: The recipes document does point to Cool URIs. This has come up
before, the potential for RDFa to deliver vocabularies.
<TomB> Cool URIs or "simple implementation":
[18]http://www.openarchives.org/ore/0.9/primer.html#HTTP
[18] http://www.openarchives.org/ore/0.9/primer.html#HTTP
If you did use RDFa to do that, you probably wouldn't be able to
deliver an RDF/XML graph at the same URI.
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to mention OAI ORE example
Ralph: It will be awhile before we can recommend best practices
around this.
Tom: I just wanted to quickly point out that if you click on the
link to the OAI ORE example, it looks like they have two ways of
implementing, using the Cool URIs or using a resource aggregation,
but that's intended to resolve to the information resource, not to
use the 303 redirect. I mention this because OAI ORE on the one
hand, LCSH on the other ... these are two implementations people
will look at for best practices. It would be good to make sure that
the right precedences are set for these and documented.
Tom: Could you take an action, Ed, to write a note to the list? It's
worth trying to nail it down and try to get the reasoning nailed
down.
<scribe> ACTION: Ed to write up the rationale behind the
dereferencing behavior for LCSH [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/03-swd-minutes.html#action01]
Ed: and Alistair can respond
Tom: I think that's going to be one of the implementation examples
for SKOS, so we need to make sure everything is in place for doing
the right thing for the recipes.
<edsu> aliman++
<edsu> # for bringing that issue up
Tom: Meeting Adjourned
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ed to write up the rationale behind the dereferencing
behavior for LCSH [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/03-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: alistair and sean to add a note about
irreflexivity to Reference [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action05]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to
primer re. concept co-ordination [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Editors of the Use Cases to clean up the lists of
requirements in light of resolutions [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/07-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Editors to produce a revised working draft for
next week on which we can vote [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html#action15]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus and Alistair write text for Reference
indicating understanding of a possible need for future patterns for
n-Ary label relations [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and
equivalence w/r/t subclass [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Margherita to liase with author primer about
example using plain literals and some with datatype literals
[recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-minutes.html#action17]
[PENDING] ACTION: Sean and Alistair to send a file for the namespace
[recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: seanb to set up wiki for SKOS/OWL patterns
[recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html#action14]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action05
[22] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html#action01
[23] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/07-swd-minutes.html#action02
[24] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html#action15
[25] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action08
[26] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html#action02
[27] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-swd-minutes.html#action17
[28] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action04
[29] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/27-swd-minutes.html#action14
[PENDING] ACTION: Alistair to check the old namespace wrt
dereferencing [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Antoine and Ed to add content to Primer about
irreflexivity [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for
RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus to mail his position on issues 72, 73 and 75
to the list [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action25]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph compose intermediate pages for
[34]http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-spec and
[35]http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/ to inform readers of
the paths to the old and new SKOS documents [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default
behavior" [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to review the new Editor's Draft of the
Recipes [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of
Recipes implementations] [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20]
[PENDING] ACTION: Sean to write a proposal to indicate to OWL WG our
requirements for annotation properties [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[End of minutes]
[30] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action03
[31] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action06
[32] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14
[33] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action25
[34] http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-spec
[35] http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/
[36] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action02
[37] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14
[38] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-swd-minutes.html#action06
[39] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20
[40] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#action07
Change log:
$Log: 03-swd-minutes.html,v $
Revision 1.3 2008/06/10 12:34:34 swick
Copy new and pending actions from 27-May telecon
Revision 1.2 2008/06/10 12:31:08 swick
From Elisa Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:42:50 -0700
_______________________________________________________
Received on Tuesday, 10 June 2008 12:38:58 UTC