Re: [SKOS] ISSUE-83 semantics of scheme containment properties

Hi Alistair,

It seems like we would need the input of RDF and OWL experts to be sure 
about our positions ;-)
Namely, someone who could find a sentence in the OWL docs something that 
says that blank nodes are not allowed as the object of a rdfs:subPropertyOf.

Again, the down-side of naming the unnamed is that such a property would 
not correspond to any user requirement in terms of KOS modelling. Which 
I'm really unconfortable with. But you know this already...

Cheers,

Antoine

> Hi Antoine,
>
> Comments inline...
>
>   
>>>> Otherwise I think you can indeed introduce a non-named property in
>>>>         
>> an
>>     
>>>> OWL axiom, like (hoping I'm not making any mistake...)
>>>>
>>>> skos:hasTopconcept rdfs:subPropertyOf [ a owl:ObjectProperty;
>>>> owl:inverseOf skos:inScheme .] .
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> I originally thought of this, but I'm not sure it's ok. Note in
>>>       
>> particular that the RDF abstract syntax requires all predicates to be
>> named. I.e. you can't have a triple with a blank node in the predicate
>> position. That's why I'm really not sure about using blank predicates
>> in OWL-like axioms.
>>     
>> I'm sorry but again I'm not sure to understand. In the code above all
>> my
>> predicates are named.
>> I guess a proper OWL reasoner reading this should not ouput inferred
>> statements corresponding to the "hidden" property (because indeed you
>> cannot have a blank node as a predicate in a graph) but would still use
>> that in its internal processes to infer the statements with the
>> inScheme
>> that wwe're interested in.
>> But that's at the level of how the OWL reasoner handles this, I guess
>> we
>> can rely on that... (but I admit I'm far from an expert on that)
>>     
>
> I *think* the problem is that the condition you state above, under the OWL Full semantics, would entail triples that have blank nodes in the predicate position.
>
> So e.g. stated another way
>
> skos:hasTopConcept rdfs:subPropertyOf _:p .
> <X> skos:hasTopConcept <Y> .
>
> might entail 
>
> <X> _:p <Y> .
>
> which is not legal RDF.
>
> Similarly, 
>
> _:p owl:inverseOf skos:inScheme .
> <X> skos:inScheme <Y> .
>
> might entail 
>
> <Y> _:p <X> .
>
> which again is not legal RDF.
>
> Let's just do this the obvious way, and give our mystery property a name. Why not? What's the down-side?
>
>   
>>> The only other way I can think of doing it, without a new URI in the
>>>       
>> SKOS vocabulary, is to start from how you could express the condition
>> as per the rdf/owl full semantics, e.g.
>>     
>> But wouldn't that also fail your 'we have to put in it in the OWL
>> ontology' stance?
>> Otherwise I'd be perfectly happy with that.
>>     
>
> You mistake me. I'm *not* taking a 'we have to put in it in the OWL ontology' stance. But if we can, then I think we should. For S13 and S34 there is no choice -- there is no possible way to state the condition using RDFS/OWL.
>
>   
>>> "for any X, Y, if <X,Y> is in IEXT(I(skos:hasTopConcept)) then <Y,X>
>>>       
>> is in IEXT(I(skos:inScheme))"
>>     
>>> Then try to express this in plain English, e.g.
>>>
>>> "if a concept scheme S has top concept C, then C is ..."
>>>
>>> I trailed off there because I can't think of a clear and unambiguous
>>>       
>> way to say it.
>>     
>> I think the 'formal' condition addresses perfectly the problem. As for
>> the 'pplain English', I don't see why "if a concept scheme S has top
>> concept C, then C is a member of the scheme S."
>>     
>
> Yes I thought of that, but then we have to explain what "member" means. And this could get confused with the property skos:member, which relates to collections. (I remember a couple of emails way back that already got skos:member confused with concept schemes.) Not necessarily a show-stopper, but would require careful wording.
>
>   
>>> The third alternative of course is simply to state an inference rule,
>>>       
>> without any underlying semantic conditions. However I'm reluctant to do
>> that, because it would be the first and only time we include an
>> inference rule in the SKOS data model...
>>
>> How about these? There are not pure OWL and yet they are in the
>> semantic
>> conditions...
>> "S13      A resource has no more than one value of skos:prefLabel per
>> language."
>> "S34      For any resource, every item in the list given as the value
>> of
>> the skos:memberList property is also a value of the skos:member
>> property."
>>     
>
> See above, for these there is no choice.
>
> I say let's give this mystery property a name. Why not?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alistair.
>
>
>
>
>   
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Antoine
>>
>>     
>>>  (has a quick hunt for recent progress on RIF, SWRL, DL-safe rules)
>>>       
>> ...I guess there are now options for stating inference rules (see e.g.
>> [1]) however knowing very little I fear to open a can of worms.
>>     
>>> Hence a new URI and some obvious RDFS and OWL 1 axioms seems like the
>>>       
>> safest option.
>>     
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Al.
>>>
>>> [1] http://code.google.com/p/owl1-1/wiki/SafeRulesOverview
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Again, I would definitively favor one of these two options over
>>>> introducing a new property.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Antoine
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-
>>>>         
>> wg/2008May/0068.html
>>     
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Hi Antoine,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just trying to figure out how to implement the resolution [1]
>>>>>           
>> to
>>     
>>>>> issue 83 [2] in the SKOS reference.
>>>>>
>>>>> The most obvious way is to introduce a new property, called
>>>>>           
>> something
>>     
>>>>> like skos:topConceptInScheme, and introduce two new statements into
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> SKOS data model, that skos:topConceptInScheme is a sub-property of
>>>>> skos:inScheme, and that skos:topConceptInScheme is the inverse of
>>>>> skos:hasTopConcept.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another way would be to avoid introducing any new properties, and
>>>>>           
>> to
>>     
>>>>> include a new statement in the data model, something like, "the
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> inverse
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> of skos:hasTopConcept is a sub-property of skos:inScheme", or "if a
>>>>> scheme has a top concept, then the top concept is in that scheme",
>>>>> or ... ?
>>>>>
>>>>> At the moment I favour the first approach. It has an obvious
>>>>>           
>> meaning
>>     
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> terms of RDFS/OWL. The second approach has no obvious translation
>>>>>           
>> in
>>     
>>>>> RDFS/OWL, and is difficult to word.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Al.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> wg/2008May/0068.html
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> [2] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/83
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alistair Miles
>>> Senior Computing Officer
>>> Image Bioinformatics Research Group
>>> Department of Zoology
>>> The Tinbergen Building
>>> University of Oxford
>>> South Parks Road
>>> Oxford
>>> OX1 3PS
>>> United Kingdom
>>> Web: http://purl.org/net/aliman
>>> Email: alistair.miles@zoo.ox.ac.uk
>>> Tel: +44 (0)1865 281993
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>
>
>
>

Received on Monday, 28 July 2008 16:35:02 UTC