- From: Sean Bechhofer <sean.bechhofer@manchester.ac.uk>
- Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:40:36 +0100
- To: SWD Working Group <public-swd-wg@w3.org>
The [1] record of this week's SWD telecon is ready for review. Text
copy below.
[1] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html
Sean
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------------------------
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
SWD WG
12 Jun 2007
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/
0031.html
See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2007-06-05
[3] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-irc
[4] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html
Attendees
Present
Ed Summers, Bernard Horan, Sean Bechhofer, Guus Schreiber,
Ralph Swick, Clay Redding, Antoine Isaac, Elisa Kendall, Tom
Baker, Justin Thorp, Diego Berrueta, Alistair Miles
Regrets
Daniel Rubin, Jon Phipps, Ben Adida
Chair
Guus Schreiber
Scribe
Sean Bechhofer
Contents
* [5]Topics
1. [6]Admin
2. [7]SKOS
3. [8]Recipes
4. [9]Vocabulary Management
5. [10]RDFa
* [11]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
Admin
TomB: Welcome to new members
Justin: US Library of Congress (LC).
<RalphS> Justin Thorp
Justin: research into emerging web technologies. Incorporation into
web strategies
<RalphS> Clay Redding
Clay: Also US LC. Library Services department.
... XML background. Office handles vocabs/code lists, so a natural
fit
TomB: Describing telecon procedure.
Guus: Proposed accept miuntues of 5th June.
... all action items there.
... no objections
... Possible telecons cancelled in first two weeks of August
TomB: Already added this to scribing document (duty/on deck).
... shows which telecons will be cancelled.
<TomB> [12]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/ScribeDuty
[12] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/ScribeDuty
Guus: Face to Face meeting
... plan to have f2f in fall
... look at results so far.
Tomb: first option W3C Tech plenary week.
... summarising results of poll
... looks like tech plenary is better but Daniel and Guus can't make
that
... might be able to get a small meeting of six people or so if half
the maybes turn up
<RalphS> [13]current f2f2 poll results
[13] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f3poll1/results
Tomb: but if all came for tech plenary week could be 12.
Guus: Could we split subjects?
... e.g. RDfa in Boston, SKOS in Korea?
... might be piossible to have small SKOS meeting in Korea based on
... responses to far.
... All options suboptimal.
... Guus and Tom to consider and make a proposal
SKOS
ACTION: Ralph to update SKOS pages to point to UCR [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[CONTINUES]
[14] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action01
ACTION: Alistair to fix wording on skos issues sandbox [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action03]
[CONTINUES]
[15] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action03
ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of issue 33
[recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[CONTINUES]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09
ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues
to test cases [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]
[CONTINUES]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06
ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to
Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]
[CONTINUES]
[18] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10
Antoine: Do Jon and Alistair need help on this? Could contribute an
hour or so.
Alistair: Yes please!
Antoine: Wording issues. Some issues have different names in sandbox
and requirements list
Alistair: Didn't just transfer issues verbatim. Tried to do some
editing
... and choose names that were clearer, Is this an issue?
... didn't think about matching req document.
Guus: Antoine take the token.
Alistair: happy for Antoine to do what he sees fit.
ACTION: Guus to include a reference to the original requirements in
the resolution proposal [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action09] [DONE]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action09
ACTION: Guus to point to typical responses that follow guidelines
described in telecon [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action02] [DONE]
[20] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action02
<guus>[21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/
0033.html
[21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/
0033.html
ACTION: Guus to rephrase current proposal, slightly revise naming
based on comments [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action07] [DONE]
[22] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action07
<Bern>
[23]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosDesign/RelationshipsBetwe
enLabels/ProposalThree
[23] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosDesign/
RelationshipsBetweenLabels/ProposalThree
Guus: Added discussion note.discussions between antoine/daniel terms
are words used to refer to skos concepts
... if you use that then people might think skos:term is what one
defines broader/narrower
... on maybe not an ideal term, but alternatives are worse. Label is
confusing, LabelResource too
... complex, word confuses focus. Guus strong preference for
skos:Term
Bernard: Why is label confusing? The whole discussion is confusing
Guus: Label comes from RDF terminology. Every resource/URI can have
a label. Original SKOS had a subproperty of rdsf:label. Now
... two ways of defining the terms that you want to refer to a
concept.
... Either a label (literal). Or as a URI that links to other URIs.
prefLabel will then link to a ... literal rather than a label. So
confusing.
... Normal in thesauri terms to talk about terms as being items that
are used to refer
... to a notion in a vocabulary
Bernard: Problem is that we're tryng to address many audiences with
different preconceptions
<aliman> +1 on what bernard said
Guus: Can the LC people take a look and advise?
Ed: Spent some time reviewing proposal, getting up to speed.
... glossary is referenced (willpower). In there ideas like concept
and term are defined
... seemed pretty clear what they meant. In general, want a miminal
fix approach.
... doumentation properties can have three different values literal,
resource description or uri
... why can't we use that?
Guus: Original proposal was to remove a constraint and make spec
smaller. Main problem is
... introducing confusion. Tools need to be on the lookout. To
visualise a concept need to be aware if it's
... pointing to a literal or a resource. Second issue is OWL. Won't
be able to work with
... this as OWL required strict separation of object/data
properties. Hence simple extension
... proposal. Minimal extra thing to handle the OWL issue. If you
use prefLabel it's a literal. If
... prefTerm it's a resource.
Ed: Acronym example does a good job of describing why terms as
resoruces would be useful.
... What's the use case where this came up? Who asked for what
functionality?
Guus: Top of document. Link to candidate requirements and use cases
Antoine: Anchors for each requirement are there.
Guus: Main question was whether the distinction between concept and
term is confusing?
Ed: Antoine questioning the use of concept in SKOS? Thesauri don't
really have concepts. Is that right?
Antoine: Not questioning the way that it's done. Agree with this.
Issue is that during discussion with
... Daniel there's ambiguity between term based and concept based
approach. Would agreee with
... current stance of SKOS.
Ed: unrelated to this tracking discussion on general SW list. URIs
for things that aren't resources.
<aliman> maybe we should deal with the semantics of skos:Concept
first?
Ed: Idea of addressing concepts is subtle. Core guide referes to
indirection. Some helpful text about Henry VIII.
... If it's just terms that don't have to map to concepts then it
would maybe be easier.
Guus: Point referred to is a broader issue. Goes to the root of
concept-based representaiton in SKOS
... Would be unwilling to open that door unless there are compelling
reasons.
Ed: No, that's fine.
Guus: Want to start closing issues. Interested in Alistair's opinion
Alistair: Favourite position on this is a move towards original
n-ary relations pattern.
... Original proposal by alistair a little contrived. Want miminal
solution. Nice now that the
... extension propoisal is detailed, can figure out the detailed
consquences, e.g. various entailments
... that would follow. Would like to see alternative proposals
presented so that options can be compared
... side by side. As a solution, concerned that simple extension has
consequences that are hard
... to fathom.
Guus: What are those?
Ali: In the example, there's a term with labels in two languages.
What does it mean for a term to
... be labelled in two languages. Isn't a term embedded in a
language?
... Could end up with different patterns of use.
Guus: One resolution is to restrict label property to cardinality 1.
Ali: But then what about transliteration or character sets? More
than one way to write down a term
... in a language.
Guus: Same issue in current SKOS with multiple labels.
Antoine: Support Alistair's proposal for one rdfs:label per term.
Multiple wording is
... a situation where you have mutlple terms each with its label,
and relationships between the,
Alistair: Commenting on Ed's question re. use cases. Most compelling
use cases
... are multilinguality. E.g. Japanese and making links between
different character sets.
... Most important motiviation
Guus: Keen to close. Propose action on Guus to update w.r.t.
Alistair's issues. If you
... want a proposal there, need to present it
Alistair: It's a difficult issue.
Guus: If we resolve an issue and there are technical problems, we
can reopen
Alistair: Other issues might be lower hanging fruit.
... trying to find time to do this.
Guus: Need to tackle the hard issues.
Alistair: When SKOS originally set up. Three namespaces. SKOS,
Mappings and Extensions
... Extensions never stabilised. To move forward, maybe have
proposals in an extensions namespace
... that's published as a note, outside normative recommendation
Guus: Experience of dialects not always positive. Could put
everything into an
... extensions space and then decide on status later.
... Two things. 1/ using extensions space for working things out
... 2/ what is normative.
... Could decide everything in the extensions space is normative.
Alistair: Another issue. Example that arises when modeliing terms.
Simple extension proposal
... prefTerm is functional. So can only be one.
... what happens to entities in an open world? People have always
modelled vocabs
... as data structures within defined boundaries. What if someone
comes along and asserts identity
... between two terms?
ACTION: Guus to update proposal with issue of single vs. multiple
labels for terms [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html#action09]
ACTION: Alistair to provide details of alternative proposal
[recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html#action10]
ACTION: Antoine to put SimpleExtensionProposal into wiki [recorded
in [26]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action08]
[DONE]
[26] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action08
<TomB> aliman, where is the extension namespace documented?
<aliman> [27]SKOS extensions specification
[27] http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/extensions/spec/
Guus: Would like to leave SKOS concepts and ontology classes for now
... Grouping construct no progress. But no actions
Guus: Who owns the issue?
Alistair: Still action on me to propose minimal fix
ACTION: Alistair to propose resolution for Issue-33 (minimal fix)
[recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html#action12]
Guus: Report on SKOS validator. Messages from Antoine and Alistair
Antoine: Recently converted vocab to SKOS.
<aliman> [29]SKOS validation service (alpha)
[29] http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/validation
Antoine: used tool for vocab validation. Went ok.
... devoted to current version. Might have to be adapted, but it's
useful.
Alistair: interesting thing about validation service is that it
bears on how
... how we define broader/narrower/related. Service looks for
circularity. Assumes that circularity is bad.
<RalphS> [I will try to remember to write my comments about naming
into email -- I wanted to say that given a choice between choosing
terminology that may confuse RDF/OWL folk and terminology that is
confusing to the expected SKOS community, I'd make the RDF/OWL folk
work harder; we're accustomed to the idea of terminology namespaces
already.]
Alistair: circularity is non-sensical. Should that be embedded in
semantics?
... Also not just cycles, but overlap, e.g. if there are multiple
paths in the hierarchy.
Guus: OWL Validator. Gives errors and warnings
Alistair: Yes. Errors and warnings. Currently set up for cycles to
be errors
Sean:The question is really what is considered to be an error and
what is considered a warning
... are multiple pathways an error?
Guus: SKOS validator can act as a tool for candidate req stage
later.
... would be useful to look for other tools to support skos.
Sean:Do we have a reasonable definition of "a tool that supports
SKOS"?
Alistair: Paper for DC conference last year. Defined three types of
tools
... vocab development
... indexing applications. Read vocab allow tagging
... retrieval applciations. Use the structure and the
idnex/metadata. Support browse/search
... Three classes of application. Look at requirements document. USe
cases go outside of that
... scope.
<RalphS> [I note that some attempt to define what it means to
"support SKOS" will be very useful when the WG gets to proposing
exit criteria for Candidate Recommendation]
Sean: We should be clear about what we think implementation will be
... is bound up in test cases too
... a set of concrete test cases could define what it means to
support SKOS
<aliman> SKOS implementations of vocabulary development
applications: ThManager and the NSDL Metadata Registry
<aliman> ->
[30]http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/public/skos/press/dc2006/camera-rea
dy-paper.pdf SKOS: Requirements for standardisation (paper for
DC2006 which talks about classes of application using SKOS) see also
presentation:
[31]http://dc2006.ucol.mx/papers/miercoles/10.30/presentation.pdf
[30] http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/public/skos/press/dc2006/
camera-ready-paper.pdf
[31] http://dc2006.ucol.mx/papers/miercoles/10.30/presentation.pdf
Recipes
ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[CONTINUES]
[32] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09
Vocabulary Management
Elisa: Possibility to take topics one by one
... if we have enough bandwidth on call, take opinion on issues.
Elisa: Keep it tight and make reference to things that people are
doing.
Elisa: get people to write one or two sentences. Which topics to
cover in each section
... Perhaps one section per call.
Guus: Happy to put that on the agenda for next week.
Elisa: First section. Named terms using URI referencec
Guus: Link?
Elisa: yes in the agenda
TomB: Given resource constraints, only realistic thing is to
... try and finish it in a form close to the current one.
<RalphS> Elisa: see "Name Terms using URI References" in ->
[33]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/VocabMgtDraft Vocab Wiki
draft
[33] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/VocabMgtDraft
TomB: five high level points in a page or so each.
... would still take an awful lot of work. Discussion with Elisa,
would be doable to
... do a high level note, but requires real resource. E.g. SW list
discussing exactly this problem
Guus: We are out of time. Let's take this up next week.
RDFa
Guus: Ben not here, we'll ask for an update next week.
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Alistair to propose resolution for Issue-33 (minimal
fix) [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Alistair to provide details of alternative proposal
[recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: Guus to update proposal with issue of single vs.
multiple labels for terms [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Alistair to fix wording on skos issues sandbox
[recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of
issue 33 [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from
the issues to test cases [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from
Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3
[recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to update SKOS pages to point to UCR
[recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[37] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action03
[38] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09
[39] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06
[40] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10
[41] http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09
[42] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action01
[DONE] ACTION: Guus to point to typical responses that follow
guidelines described in telecon [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[DONE] ACTION: Antoine to put SimpleExtensionProposal into wiki
[recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action08]
[DONE] ACTION: Guus to include a reference to the original
requirements in the resolution proposal [recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[DONE] ACTION: Guus to rephrase current proposal, slightly revise
naming based on comments [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action07]
[43] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action02
[44] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action08
[45] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action09
[46] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action07
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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--
Sean Bechhofer
School of Computer Science
University of Manchester
sean.bechhofer@manchester.ac.uk
http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/people/bechhofer
Received on Wednesday, 13 June 2007 08:41:40 UTC