- From: Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us>
- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:15:24 -0500
- To: Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>
- Cc: public-sw-meaning@w3c.org
>Pat, > >Being a "a Bear of Very Little Brain", :-) So, where do you keep your honey? >I often find myself trying to reduce complex ideas to simple terms. >Reading with interest your recent comments on naming and reference, >it seems to me that: > >(1) "meaning" is something (arbitrary thing?) that is not understood >by automata, but some representation of meaning may be transferred >by automata if subjected to only meaning-preserving transformations. I don't know what meaning is. I prefer not to use the word at all. Representations, now, I understand what they are. Along with many other cogsci folk, my theory of how cognitive agents, including people and animals, understand anything is that the understanders have representations in their heads which are active in some useful way. We can do something similar with software (ie put representations in it and manipulate them) so maybe our software can be said to understand meanings as well, but the extent to which they do so is very, very limited compared to what humans can do with their mental representations. (And this idea of mental representations is highly debated by some other folk, so best avoided in any SWeb standards kind of a forum.) >(2) formal semantics provides us with tools to describe some >representation transformations under which the meaning is preserved >(according to the representation used). Well, OK, though again this talk of preserving meaning as though it was a kind of pickle bothers me. What the RDF/OWL operations do is preserve truth (or, if you prefer, preserve interpretations). Again, truth I understand, but meanings I don't. >(3) "naming" is a social process, Yup >whereby labels are associated with (or "identify") things [a]. All >known systems of naming are imprecise. I wouldnt go so far as to say all. But probably, yes. >(4) "denotation" (and "interpretation") are formal semantic concepts >that are used in the description of meaning-preserving >transformations for a representation, which have no formal link with >any system of naming. Well, there might be some links. For example, it would be perverse to say that names don't denote what they name. But there is no connection between the actual process of naming, what I called baptism, and the formal MT, right. > That is, naming is completely opaque as far as formal semantics are >concerned. Right. > This is why formal semantics work: by showing some transformation >preserves meaning for any possible system of naming, then it must >preserve meaning for any given system of naming. Right, well put. >(5) On the web, when the labels used are (a subset of URIs known as) >URLs [b] there is a convention for naming based partly on the >technical properties of retrieval of representations of web >resources. (While some attempt is being made to improve the >situation, the exact operation of this convention does not have a >complete rigorous definition, and maybe never will.) Right. And this relationship, referred to by the word "identify", seems to be what the RFC 2396 and TAG architecture text is mostly talking about (at least, it makes sense if you interpret it that way.) BTW, I am trying to figure out how one might actually do a URI baptism. See http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes/PatHayes for a (rather lame) start. >(6) Currently, there are no widely accepted technical naming >mechanisms associated with labels that are not URLs. Thats the way it seems. Mind you, I still don't fully understand how URNs are supposed to work. > The only mechanisms are social, in that they rely on out-of-band >agreements between people. Right. Some of the agreements are handled by language, however, so there is at least the possibility of getting them handled by computational agents if we invent and agree on suitable protocols. We can ride on society's coat-tails. >#g >-- > >[a] I use the term "thing" very broadly, in the sense of anything >that can be contemplated by a consensual agent (person, etc.). (The >term "consensual agent" comes from a private discussion with an >ethical philospher about the nature of trust; I think its meaning >is self-evident, but I can't find any references to back up the >sense in which I understand it.) Well, what would be an example of a non-consensual agent? >[b] in my view, whether or not a given URI is also a URL is not >fixed for all time. Todays's non-URL may become tomorrow's URL >through introduction and consensus concerning new retrieval >mechanisms; e.g. URNs and DDDS. Ah, good point I had not considered. Hmmm, need to think about that. Pat -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973 home 40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202 4416 office Pensacola (850)202 4440 fax FL 32501 (850)291 0667 cell phayes@ihmc.us http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
Received on Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:15:27 UTC