- From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
- Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 11:24:35 +0200
- To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
Minutes:
http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-minutes.html
and as text below:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
22 Aug 2013
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
[IPcaller], krit, Doug_Schepers, ed, birtles, heycam,
Rich, nikos, +1.425.373.aaaa, Tav
Regrets
Chris
Chair
Cameron
Scribe
ed
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Review of comments on css3-fonts
2. [6]css3 cascade review
3. [7]Animation of CSS Filter Functions with url()
function
4. [8]SMIL animations on CSS filter property and filter
functions
5. [9]Review request on SVG 1.1 SVG filters
6. [10]Should color values in all our specs be between
0.255 or 0..1?
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 22 August 2013
Zakim: +jimsch is me
<birtles> Zakim: [IP is me
<heycam> Agenda:
[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSe
p/0060.html
[12]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0060.html
<scribe> scribeNick: ed
Review of comments on css3-fonts
<heycam>
[13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Review_comments_on_c
ss-fonts-3_2013-07-11
[13]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Review_comments_on_css-fonts-3_2013-07-11
CM: csswg had requested our comments on css3 fonts, due today
... put together chris and my comments on that wikipage
... first, have tests for features, and to convert them to svg
tests
... second, svg in opentype, selecting colors from the font or
from outside, just to keep this in mind for next level of spec
... the rest seems good to me
krit1, BB: sounds good
<richardschwerdtfeger> +1
CM: ok, if everyone is happy then I'll send our comments
css3 cascade review
krit1: no incompat to svg spec
... scoped styles introduced in html5, and css defines how they
interact with cascades... would be nice to add to svg moving
forward
... but no specific comments on css3 cascade spec from the svg
POV
CM: will you send a mail to www-style say that we're happy with
it?
krit1: sure
Animation of CSS Filter Functions with url() function
krit1: just added filter functions, can interpolate as long as
the types match
... shorter list can be interpolated with longer lists by
appending to the end of the shorter list
... question is: can we tolerate a url but interpolate things
around the url()?
... <explanation about time jumping and interpolation (missed)
>
CM: follow same rules as ...?
krit1: similar to transforms interpolation, falls back to full
interpolation of matrices
... but something like that isn't possible with filter
functions
... some have just length values which are easy to interpolate
CM: we might get the same problem with marker patterns too,
interpolating between url and some values
krit1: yes, it would be the same problem
CM: with SMIL, does it switch half-way through?
krit1: you have a timing function, f(t)
... the function defines if you should jump or not
BB: once you swithc to discrete you ignore
... any keysplines
CM: if you have calcmode something else, can you interpolate?
... are we the same as CSS animation?
krit1: SMIL animation is different
BB: the models are compatible
krit1: both can be done with the same timing model
BB: in svg the output doesn't take keysplines into acconut in
discrete mode, but in css it does
krit1: we have a resoltuon in the csswg about this, but it
hasn't been included in the specs yet
... for properties that have enums
CM: in the future the spec will say it does the switching?
krit1: yes
CM: in that case it should be fine to let filters behave like
that too
... can you interpolate between a longer and a short list if
they have the same types?
krit1: yes
... it's specified how that should work
CM: ok, happy with that then
krit1: what do others think?
DS: sounds fine
RESOLUTION: url on filter property can be interpolated with
discrete animations
SMIL animations on CSS filter property and filter functions
krit1: when you look at svg, we had similar bugreports in
mozilla
<birtles> [14]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html
[14] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html
<birtles>
[15]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html#AnimationAttributes
AndProperties
[15]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html#AnimationAttributesAndProperties
krit1: if we look 19.17
<krit1>
[16]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#InterfaceTimeEvent
[16] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#InterfaceTimeEvent
<krit1>
[17]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#AnimationAttributesAn
dProperties
[17]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#AnimationAttributesAndProperties
krit1: sorry, 19.2.17
... there you have the datatypes that can be animated
... we don't have filter functons there
... SMIL animations can interpolate same as css animations
CM: as david baron suggested, filter spec should say how to
interpolate
... not sure what to say in svg spec itself
... will work how that should look
krit1: just reference the filter effects (how they can be
animated)
CM: we wouldn't have to refer to filters from svg
krit1: but you have to find all specs to find the animatable
types
CM: but then you have to update two specs and keep them in sync
DS: question, about timelines, brian you'd be the one to put
new animations in svg?
... do you feel like it's an svg2 thing, or an svg3? or a
module?
BB: prefer a module, don't want to hold up the svg2 spe
DS: what kind of timeframe do you have for mapping the svg
animations to the new animation model?
BB: within the next year
DS: would be good to have something to review, in parallell
with svg2 being finalized
... just to let ppl know that declarative animations aren't
dead
... we've talked about letting svg2 be the core spec, and
letting svg2.1 be the svg spec + some modules
... animations might fit in there pretty well, your timeframe
seems reasonable
tav: how are you supposed to animate a 'width' in the future?
BB: the proposal is to promote that to a property, and to
animate that
... focused on properties
... so try to promote most things to properties, where it makes
sense
krit1: the table with types, should I add that to the filter
spec?
BB: yes, seems reasonable
<scribe> ACTION: krit to add filter function data type for
declarative animations (to the filter effects spec) [recorded
in [18]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3519 - Add filter function data type
for declarative animations (to the filter effects spec) [on
Dirk Schulze - due 2013-08-29].
krit1: are filter functions additive? and can they be paced
animations?
Tav: don't understand the second one
CM: intrinsic notion of ... between values, constant velocity
... or speed
krit1: would be a timing function, think it's keypoints, but
not sure
CM: yeah, duistance between the values
BB: not sure theres a disctance between filter values, if
there's not then there's no reason to do paced
krit1: length and ... can both be paced
BB: if you have the same types then yes
... apart from transforms, color aslo has interesting distance
type
<heycam>
[19]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#complexDistances
[19] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#complexDistances
BB: there are the definitions for hte diff data types
... that DOH wanted
DS: did we ever anticipate animating between not having a
filter to having a filter?
CM: think that was covered with animating between 'none' and
some other values, and dirk said it would work
DS: does it only work fro url filters, or jst shorthand
filters?
krit1: just shorthands
DS: animating between my own drop shadow and my own blur, and
transitions from regular HSL to sepia
krit1: not really possible, unless you have custom filters,
with custom variables that you can animate
... svg parameters might let you do that too
DS: got distracted when svg params seemed similar to css
variables
... if we want to do something with svgparams we should go back
and look at use-cases
krit1: ok, but it's a different discussion
BB: back to additive and paced, makes sense to be both
CM: when it makes sense to be additive, would it add or
multply?
krit1: you'd look at the distance functions
... you'd look at the two filter functions
CM: right, but for adding, it's smetimes different how things
are additive
... like scale and translate, postmultiply and add
... so maybe we should look at where it makes sense to do what
and in which contexts, for filter functions
krit1: maybe, I have no idea what would make sense here
CM: having animations for filters is similar to transforms
where you want to concatenate two lists, for additive
BB: hmm, yeah, might make sense
CM: what's the diff between paced and additive?
krit1: the distance function
CM: don't think additive needs the distanec function
... don't think that's necessary
BB: yeah, distance is only used when doing paced animation
krit1: not sure how ... could look like
CM: should I write up how I think it should work, and send to
list?
krit1: yeah, sure
<scribe> ACTION: heycam to write up how additive animations
should work on filter functions, and send to www-svg [recorded
in [20]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3520 - Write up how additive
animations should work on filter functions, and send to www-svg
[on Cameron McCormack - due 2013-08-29].
Review request on SVG 1.1 SVG filters
krit1: I'm cleaning up the filter functions
... if anyone have some suggestions for how to write
descriptions of filter functions in a more clear way please
send to the public mailinglist
CM: yes, hard to understand what the filter functions do by
looking at the algorithm code in the spec
... what stage is the filter spec atm?
krit1: i think we published second WD
CM: should we not review the spec as it is right now?
krit1: not until tomorrow at least
... i'll ping you next week
... by request on peter linss I have some more issues that i'll
bring up next week
Should color values in all our specs be between 0.255 or 0..1?
krit1: svg filters defntions not always clear which range we
use
Tav: one problem with 255 is that you can't have half
DS: anyone disagree with 0..1 is the better way?
Tav: maybe backwards compat?
DS: it's only a spec-level change, shouldnt affect the
implementations
tav: how do we deal with displacement map, it's to 0..255,
right?
CM: we're only talking about the spec definitions, right?
DS: yes, but in authoring practice
... but we should resolve on using 0..1 for colors
... and then we should look at where we use 0.255 in the spec
tav: would like the lighting filters, where you have
discontinuities, produces steps
... you get a bump
... you get angles in your bump maps
DS: we could use a functions, instead of rgb we could use hsl,
or some value
tav: would like to see it addressed at some point
DS: put forward a proposal?
tav: red value for x direciton, blue for y direction, but you
define the bumps in terms of color
... <tries to find example>
<Tav>
[21]http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Filters-Lighti
ng.html
[21]
http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Filters-Lighting.html
DS: maybe we should first have a proposal?
tav: you can see the effects on that page
krit1: do you want the artifacts, or smooth?
tav: smooth
... you define the map as a png or a bitmap or whatever
CM: the intermediate thing you render to, are you allowed to
have something more precise that you input to the lighting
filter
tav: right
CM: in our internal operations in the spec we should use 0..1,
correct?
all: yes
RESOLUTION: we must always use 0..1 for color values in svg
specifications
<shepazu> s/sould/must/
CM: this comes up in filter primitive definitions?
krit1: would be good to specify in the beginning
trackbot, end telcon
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: heycam to write up how additive animations should
work on filter functions, and send to www-svg [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: krit to add filter function data type for
declarative animations (to the filter effects spec) [recorded
in [23]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [24]scribe.perl version
1.138 ([25]CVS log)
$Date: 2013-08-22 21:37:48 $
__________________________________________________________
[24] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[25] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11
Check for newer version at [26]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
scribe/
[26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/CM/BB/
Succeeded: s/CM: if you have/BB: if you have/
FAILED: s/sould/must/
Succeeded: s/should/must/
Found ScribeNick: ed
Inferring Scribes: ed
Default Present: [IPcaller], krit, Doug_Schepers, ed, birtles, heycam, R
ich, nikos, +1.425.373.aaaa, Tav
Present: [IPcaller] krit Doug_Schepers ed birtles heycam Rich nikos +1.4
25.373.aaaa Tav
Regrets: Chris
Agenda: [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep
/
Found Date: 22 Aug 2013
Guessing minutes URL: [28]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: heycam krit
[27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/
[28] http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-minutes.html
End of [29]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
[29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
--
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
--
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Friday, 23 August 2013 09:25:20 UTC