- From: Rik Cabanier <cabanier@adobe.com>
- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:56:37 -0800
- To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <3087C3EE109D634A82116DB24F8B48450BCE8E@nambx09.corp.adobe.com>
Hello, please find below the minutes from the SVG WG telcon. http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-minutes.html [1]W3C [1] http://www.w3.org/ - DRAFT - SVG Working Group Teleconference 26 Jan 2012 [2]Agenda [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0038.html See also: [3]IRC log [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-irc Attendees Present +1.206.734.aaaa, ed, cabanier, heycam, krit, cyril, Tav, ChrisL, [Microsoft] Regrets Chair ed Scribe cabanier Contents * [4]Topics 1. [5]CSS Transforms and the behavior of SVG DOM 2. [6]OpenType and SVG 3. [7]SVG2 Requirements 4. [8]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements _Input#text-align 5. [9]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements _Input#xml:id 6. [10]role, rel, rev, about, content, datatype, property, resource, typeof 7. [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirement s_Input#display-align 8. [12]buffered rendering * [13]Summary of Action Items _________________________________________________________ <trackbot> Date: 26 January 2012 <krit> Zakim: and me? <krit> Zakim: who's here <scribe> scribenick: cabanier CSS Transforms and the behavior of SVG DOM <ed> [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#CSSOM_issue s [14] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#CSSOM_issues krit: I'm working on the merged css transform specification <krit> [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms [15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms krit: I found some possible SVG DOM issues ... issue 11 Issue 11: Interaction of SVG DOMs SVGTransformList and SVGTransform to the CSS property On transforming the SVG attribute transform' to a presentation attribute, the interaction of SVG DOM with CSSOM must be clarified. While an SVG attribute has a one-dimensional hierarchy where the value can just be influenced by the unique SVGTransformList, CSS had different cascading. Like described for CSSOm above, it is difficult to map cascading to the one-dimensional hierarchy, since different style sheets can affect the style of an element and there for can have different affects to computed style. Computed itself style doesn't allow modifications. krit: how can SVG DOM work with CSS? ... my proposal is to add a new stylesheet <krit> Follow other presenattion attributes with transform <krit> Creating new Author style sheet <krit> the hierarchy of the author style sheet is after UA style sheets and before other author style sheets <krit> SVG DOM should reflect the new created style sheet heycam: this is just make the SVG DOM expose the stylesheet <heycam> the style sheet for the presentation attributes (the low specificity one) that is heycam: on first reading this sounds reasonable ... people might be confused that CSS rules are not reflected in SVG DOM ... we had a discussion that make the base value the initial value <ed> it was "inline style" not "initial value", no? <ChrisL> yes heycam: reading out the value would get you the animated transform chrisl: animval is the computed val? <ChrisL> so the base value reflects the presentation attribute and the animval reflects the computed value heycam: basevalue and animval can reflect different thing krit: animval is the computed value ed: that makes most sense but I'm concerned about whether that means a flattened matrix, or if it's a list of matrices krit: that is not defined at the moment ... it makes most sense to have a list of animated values as well <ChrisL> agree a tranfrom list is more useful heycam: it is more useful to inspect to have a list of transform item rather than a flat matrix chrisl: you can always create a matrix, but no the other way round cyril: why is this so different? ... is it because of the cascade? kris: yes, the transform property has the cascade heycam: transform is now becoming a presentation attribute and we have to figure out what that means for the SVG DOM ... there is no access to the CSS dom from SVG. There is no .fill attribute krit: there is no animval/baseval to fill heycam: I agree with Dirk's proposal. It matches what I was thinking of. <heycam> I prefer Dirk's suggestion because if you don't use transform in style="" or in CSS style sheets, then the SVG DOM for transform works the same as it always has. heycam: it also works with the animval ... by having animval reflect the computed style, it will looks the same as before cyril: does patrick's proposal to turn some attributes into properties has the same problem ? If so, is the current solution also applicable? heycam: yes, we would want a consistent solution ed: what does 'works with animval' mean? <ChrisL> yes we do <ed> issue 12 krit: can we do 3d transform on SVGTransformList? ... we would need new interfaces for perspective, etc <ChrisL> yes, we would krit: do we want to extend SVG interfaces to access 3d transforms? ... we would have to specify everything that is in CSS, in SVG as well heycam: I don't think it's that much work, since it pretty simple ... otherwise we would have to specify what happens when you read out the transformlist krit: I would specify that it's unresolvable. SVG DOM would just return undefined ... you would access everything with CSS and this would make things backward compatible heycam: I guess we'll have similar issue with other issues ... ie by using 'calc' in css krit: yes, it is a general issue ... I would not develop SVG DOM for these use cases heycam: yes, maybe we'll use the CSSOM to manipulate ... if we improve the SVG DOM, should we target transform or should we do that in CSS? krit: just do it in CSS heycam: ie accessing width/height of a rectangle krit: if you have SVG length, you can drop the 'px' but not in CSS ... I think the group should work on allowing that in CSS heycam: in CSS you can using units, while in SVG you can't ... ie you can use '%' in CSS while in SVG you can't krit: maybe we should resolve % to pixel in SVG heycam: that would be possible ... I'm OK with returning unknown type ed: in practice, people will use the CSSOM ... since if you use the CSS feature, you will want to use that interface anyway ... we should try to make the CSSOM as good as possible krit: yes ... I would like to have the same features in CSSOM that we have in SVG now ... make the CCSS interface such as transformlist live heycam: does the combined transforms spec define any CSSOM interfaces? krit: we have not specified transformlist but have css matrix heycam: so if you use getcomputedstyle you will get them back? krit: changes to cssmatrix are reflected in css transform as well. ... css transforms are more complicated than other css features heycam: this is more a question for the CSS people chrisl: it's not clear who is editing that. heycam: glenn is supposed to be editing that resolution: for issue 11 and 12, we will accept the recommended solutions (see: [16]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#SVG_DOM_iss ues) [16] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#SVG_DOM_issues) OpenType and SVG krit: the problem are not willing to implement SVG fonts chrisl: I proposed that we implement only WOFF ... it's very clear that mozilla and microsoft are not going to implement this ... there is a proposal to add SVG fonts to OpenType ... my feeling is that is longer term than SVG2 heycam: we have an intern working on this. ... SVG glyphs inside OpenType chrisl: there is no consensus how this format will look like <krit> [17]https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVGOpenTypeFonts [17] https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVGOpenTypeFonts heycam: let me give you a link to the bug <heycam> [18]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719286 [18] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719286 heycam: I have never seen that page before chrisl: me neither heycam: this looks more like brainstorming chrisl: this page should be updated with pointers to mailing lists, etc heycam: the idea for the intern is to see how this works and report back chrisl: I'm worried that the message will be that we already figured it out ... experimentation is great though. I'm very pleased ... sairus from Adobe is working on this cabanier: I believe Sairus has a proposal. I can ping him. <heycam> [19]http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/ [19] http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/ dirk: we need to find a way to have a public discussion ie by a mailing list chrisl: I started the community group because people were emailing many groups <heycam> [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svgopentype/ [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svgopentype/ chrisl: have a central location that is archived is important ... woff encapsulates OpenType ... CSS3 also mandates OT ... we are also going that way <ChrisL> so if opentype adds this, svg will use it. discussion should be on the community group resolution: any discussion should happen on the SVG OpenType group ([21]http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/) [21] http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/) SVG2 Requirements <ed> [22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input [22] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input cyril: I will edit the wiki page <cyril> [23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#t he_.3CsolidColor.3E_element [23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.3CsolidColor.3E_element [24]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#s olid-color [24] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#solid-color chrisl: it's a single element gradient ... it's for paint servers, that are pointed to by a url krit: can't this be done with CSS right now? <ed> <solidColor id="solidMaroon" solid-color="maroon" solid-opacity="0.7"/> <rect fill="url(#solidMaroon)" .../> chrisl: not sure. by having the same class and style rule chris: css animation would select a class, right? krit: yes ... if you use a selector that is less specific, does the animation not happen? ... regardless of using this in CSS, people today are working around this with gradients. tav: inkscape has a horrible patch to do this with a one stop gradient chrisl: a solid color is really what you want to do. SVG 1.1 had it in there. It seems like a solid feature <ChrisL> and 1.2T had it too tav: inkscape would have a much simpler solution if it was in there <ChrisL> and inkscape needs it cyril: could inkscape define a color palette with CSS classes? <ed> so essentially it transforms <linearGradient><stop stop-color="foobar"/></linearGradient> into <solidColor solid-color and solid-opacity property="foobar"/>... tav: inkscape doesn't do classes <heycam> I think it you couldn't just do this with CSS, since you either need to have various different style rules for different properties, so you lose the ability to change the colour in a single place. heycam: CSS variables seems to be solving the same use case chrisl: having named colors is one of the primary reason for them. This is a very useful feature. <ChrisL> it regularises the syntax so that you can use a paint server for solid as well as radient and pattern fills. heycam: CSS variables is still far away but it would be good to avoid the same feature twice <ChrisL> also, you can animate the url to go from a solid to a gradient ad back <ChrisL> its very flexible ed: this is very simple to implement. It doesn't add much code resolution: we will add solidColor element to SVG2 [25]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#text -align [25] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#text-align <cyril> [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#x ml:id [26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml:id [27]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml: id [27] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml:id chrisl: we should drop it everyone: agreed resolution: drop XML:id role, rel, rev, about, content, datatype, property, resource, typeof chrisl: was added to support RDFa and microdate, but hasn't seen much use but it is used in HTML heycam: doesn't exactly match with what HTML5 has since they start with item krit: I think it's great but should match HTML5 heycam: HTML5 doesn't require RDFA and microdata ... microdata came with a set of DOM interfaces that we want to support chrisl: yes heycam: scanning the HTML5 spec, I don't see where RDFA is required. ... maybe there is a seperate spec chrisl: RDFlite is I believe ... it could be that the spec hasn't been updated resolution: for RDFa and microdata follow what HTML does [28]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#disp lay-align [28] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#display-align <ed> this depends on <textArea> chrisl: this is moot since we're following CSS ... not textarea <ChrisL> its tied to f the 'textArea' element. which we are not using resolution: we won't display-align since we won't have textarea buffered rendering [29]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#b uffered-rendering [29] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#buffered-rendering ed: it's a hint to cache as much as possible ... it's not a requirement cabanier: this is very useful krit: I'm fine with it heycam: I'm concerned about these hints ... like filter-region ed: I agree <ed> s/agree/share your concern about misuse of this property, but it's sometimes needed for specific devices/scenarios/ resolution: after implementor feedback, we agree that buffer rendering hints are needed heycam: with CSS transform, you can get pixelated buffers ... would we have a requirement that they should rerender ed: in most cases you don't want pixels Summary of Action Items [End of minutes] _________________________________________________________ Minutes formatted by David Booth's [30]scribe.perl version 1.136 ([31]CVS log) $Date: 2012/01/26 21:38:29 $ _________________________________________________________ [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm [31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/ Scribe.perl diagnostic output [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.] This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at [32]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002 /scribe/ [32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/priority/specicicity/ Succeeded: s/specicicity/specificity/ Succeeded: s/baseline/base value/ Succeeded: s/that makes most sense/that makes most sense but I'm concer ned about whether that means a flattened matrix, or if it's a list of m atrices/ Succeeded: s/patrick's proposal has the same proplem/does patrick's pro posal to turn some attributes into properties has the same problem ? If so, is the current solution also applicable?/ Succeeded: s/on SVG as well/on SVGTransformList/ Succeeded: s/stop developing/not develop/ Succeeded: s/do it will/define a color palette with/ Succeeded: s/wouldn't work with CSS/you couldn't just do this with CSS/ Succeeded: s/solid-color/solidColor/ Succeeded: s/solid-color/solid-color and solid-opacity property/ Succeeded: s/hasn't seen much use/was added to support RDFa and microda te, but hasn't seen much use/ Succeeded: s/scannig/scanning/ WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/agree/share your concern about misuse of t his property, but it's sometimes needed for specific devices/scenarios/ Succeeded: s/we should/would we have/ Succeeded: s/have have/have/ Succeeded: s/get/want/ Found ScribeNick: cabanier Inferring Scribes: cabanier Default Present: +1.206.734.aaaa, ed, cabanier, heycam, krit, cyril, Ta v, ChrisL, [Microsoft] Present: +1.206.734.aaaa ed cabanier heycam krit cyril Tav ChrisL [Micr osoft] Agenda: [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMa r/0038.html Found Date: 26 Jan 2012 Guessing minutes URL: [34]http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-minutes.html People with action items: [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0038.html [34] http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-minutes.html WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. 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Received on Thursday, 26 January 2012 21:57:52 UTC